Roger B said:
Definitions:
Fire Team - 3-5 men
squad - 2 fire teams?
[Tomb] Also known to some as a section. Can have 3 fireteams. Or one
small fireteam of 2-3 for a support weapon and a manouver element of
5-9. Basically 6-12 guys depending on your flavour.
Platoon - 3-4 squads? or 3-4 units of armour?
[Tomb] 3-4 squads/sections plus perhaps a platoon weap det (depends on
force doctrine). Say 25-45 guys depending on squad size and
attachements.
After this I am even more clueless
Company?
[Tomb] 2-4 line platoons usually, plus a Company HQ (small), plus
sometimes attached armour (if infantry company). This will vary between
about 50 and 160 men. Average is likley around 100-130.
Brigade?
[Tomb] Usually some sort of entity comprised of multiple battalions.
Combined arms with support arms attached like engineers, recce,
support/logistics, etc.
Battalion?
[Tomb] 2-4 companies, possibly with a couple of support platoons
attached, plus arty. Probably 300-450 men in total. Maybe 550-600 if it
is a reinforce B'n.
Any I missed?
Oh, on the books subject, has anyone read the Shelley books? Cadet, Lt,
Captain, etc?
[Tomb] Read, enjoyed, recommend. Stargrunt and DS2 (mostly Stargrunt)
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:09:46 -0500, "Tomb" <tomb@dreammechanics.com>
wrote:
> [Tomb] 2-4 line platoons usually, plus a Company HQ (small), plus
Just to throw a historical perspective into the mix... In the American Civil
War (ACW), companies were, on paper, 100 men (for infantry... I won't go into
artillery, and cavalry was similar to infantry).
> Brigade?
In horse and musket periods brigades were made up of regiments. You forgot
regiment, which is still used -- if I remember correctly -- in Britain,
and elsewhere. Am I right that the regimental level doesn't mean much in
modern conflicts?
In the ACW, anyway, a full strength volunteer regiment (I won't go into the
differences between volunteer regiments and US Regular Army regiments) were
1000 men, on paper. There was a battalion level, but this was sort of an ad
hoc designation for a unit bigger than a company but smaller than a regiment,
as units were raised in a given area and may not have enough volunteers to be
as big as a regiment.
Note that in combat, the average regiment size was about 300 to 500, and some
got very, very small due to combat losses, straggling, disease, desertions,
etc.
A brigade in the ACW was made up of a number of regiments, 3 to 5 in the
North, usually more in the South. Southern brigades had more regiments and
their regiments tended to be bigger.
> Any I missed?
Squad, Company, Battalion, Regiment, Brigade. That's about right. Next size up
is Division, then Corps.
> --- Allan Goodall <agoodall@att.net> wrote:
> In horse and musket periods brigades were made up of
Regiment... depends on the army and the time period and even then there are
some exceptions. In US practice, regiment is a purely ceremonial designations
except in the case of the 3rd Inf Reg't, and the ACRs. In French practice,
regiment means batallion, and the British are so screwed up I won't attempt to
explain them.
> Squad, Company, Battalion, Regiment, Brigade. That's
Division Corps Army Army Group
Now, the Ruskies are wierd. Their Brigades make up Corps, but if the brigades
don't have supporting elements they are called regiments and make up
divisions. Both Corps and Divisions make up an Army, and Armies make up
Fronts.
> At 3:02 PM -0800 3/21/02, John Atkinson wrote:
I'll try this as I like to think I study the British Military History. Most of
what I know is based on WWII historical forms. I can't speak of the modern
form due to the mass of amalgamations. I'd like to think that in the NAC age,
many units would have been
"de-amalgamated" or reformed as many were during the buildup for WWII.
British,
Group (3-7 men depending on form, 7 guys with rifles, 3 with rifles and
Bren) Section (10 men) Platoon (3 Sections)
Company (3-4 Platoons)
Batallion (3-4 Companys
Brigade (3 Battalions)
Divison (3 Brigades + additional Support Companys and an MG Battalion
in the case of Infantry Divisions)
Regiments are funny in that you would have battalions drawn from a certain
regiment. Say the 8th Roal Scots, 6th Roal Scots Fusiliers, 6th King's Own
Scottish Borderers all as battalions in the 44th Infantry Brigade.
So you'd have 3 Battalions in a Brigade, 3 Brigades in a Division, Plus an
additional Machine Gun Battalion drawn from another Regiment that specifically
formed the heavy weapons units for various Divisons. In the case of the 15th
Scottish Division, the 1st Middlesex MG Battalion. The 15th Scottish also had
a Recconaisance
Regiment of Armoured Cars, Carriers, half-tracks and Scout cars as a
recce unit. Naturally you'd also have Royal Artillery units attached, Royal
Engineer Units, and various other components.
See http://www.regiments.org/milhist/regtintro/index.htm for more
detail.
Guess I'll toss in my.02 as well.
I'm most familar with Modern US so here it is:
Fireteam- led by a E-3 or E-4 (Private First Class to Corporal) 3-4
guys. The fireteam has a SAW (squad automatic weapon) and a soldier with a
M-16
with a M-203 grenade launcher. The other two guys have a M-16 and
usually tote extra ammo for the SAW and M0203. The squad leader isn't attached
to a particiular squad, he just goes where he needs to.
Squad- Two fireteam led by a E-5 or E-6 ('buck' sergeant or Staff
Sarge). Nine guys in the light infantry... mech types usually have a vehicle
and its
crew, but have a smaller dismount squad (6 guys- three per fireteam). In
the armor, a tank with its crew is the same as a squad. You got me for the
artillery and support types.
Section- An informal formation in the Mech Infantry and Armor- two
squads or
tanks, one led by the Platoon Sergeant (an E-7 or E-6) and the other led
by
the Platoon leader (O-1 Second Lieutenant)
Platoon- 4 squads or tanks led by a Lieutenant: usually 16 (for a tank
platoon) to 34 (light infantry platoon) men.
Company- 3 line platoons with a HQ led by a Captain (0-3), the XO (1st
Lieutenant) and company First Sergeant (E-8 usually, but E-7 in a
pinch-we
nicknamed them 'Top'). Most US company size units don't have a 'heavy weapons'
platoon, but they DO have a mortar section (except armor) of 2 60mm tubes.
This is about 130 in the infantry and around 60 in an armor company.
Team- an informal grouping of platoons, usually formed around one of the
line companies. Usually two battalions with pair off and swap companies-
then the companies will swap platoons. A typical example is my old company
(C company, 2-34 Armor). We were swapped to the 5-16th Infanty.... once
there we swapped up one platoon (my platoon, 1st platoon) to the
5-16th's
Delta company, and got their 1st Platoon in return. In addition, the company
would get additional assets from the Bn HQ company (recovery vehicles,
medicsl vehicle, etc) and even assets from Division like ADA (a M-113
with a
Vulcan gun and SAM team) and engineers (we had converted M-48 called a
'Miclic' to clear mines, and a M-113 with an engineer team- in Desert
Storm we were one of the 'breaching' companies). Once you add all of these
additional 'ash and trash' up, your company swells up to 200+ guys! This
grouping is rather informal and VERY task oriented.
Battalion- 3-4 line companies (3 in the infantry, 4 in the armor),
infantry
battalions have either a heavy weapons company or an anti-armor company.
The light infantry battalions have a recon platoon(19 guys), a 81mm mortar
platoon (4 tubes and 27 guys), and an anti-tank platoon (can have TOWs,
.50
M-2 MGs, or even AGLs). Generally you're talking about 400-600 in a
'pure'
battalion. This outfit is led by a Lt. Colonel (O-5) with a Major as OX
(O-4). This is the lowest unit where you will find a Sergeant-Major (we
called them 'Top' as well).
Task Force- The battalion version of the Team above. Now you're adding
extra assets to a battlion (ADA, Engineers, Cavalry, and so on). Once you add
it
all up, you can have 1000+ in the unit.
Regiment- an old formation that is no longer in regular service (outside
the
Rangers and Cavalry). For the most part it exists as a history element-
tying the modern battalions to the old regiment of the Army. For example, I
was in the 2d Battalion of the 34th Armor Regiment (1st Brigade, 1st Infantry
Division). I think at the time I was in there was only one other battlion that
claimed the heritage of the 34th Armor. My battalion
(2/34)
and its sister (1/34) were part of the 1st Brigade... I think the army
tries to keep the battalions of the same regiment in the same division or
brigade, and tries to keep 'historical' relations between Divisions and
Regiments
going (all of the infantry battalions of the 1st Infantry Division belong to
the 16th, 18th, or 26th Infantry Regiments... the 'traditional' regiments of
the Division).
Brigade- Usually 3 line battalions (a mixture of armor and infantry in
'heavy' divisions, or all three infantry in light infantry, airborne, and air
assault divisions). In addition the Brigade has a HQ company (something like
200 guys), a support battalion (a BIG outfit!) and attachments (engineer
company... even a battlions!), ADA assets, Cavalry, arty (usually a
battalion), and whatever else the Division Commander wants to add to the mix.
This formation is HUGE... 5000 guys when you add up all the 'ash and trash'.
As big as some nations divisions, and usually more firepower. The Brigade is
led by a 'full' (or 'bird' because of the eagle 'n shield rank
pin- O-6) Colonel, a Lt. Colonel as XO, a Sergeant Major, and tons of
officers in the G units (the staff guys... G-1, G-2, and so on). You've
not seen anything until you've seen an Armor Brigade in battle array... a
truely awesome sight!
Division- 9-10 line battalions, and almost as many service and combat
support battalions organized into three maneuver brigades, a 'div arty' of
four battalions, an ADA battalion, a combat engineer bn, a cavalry brigade
(with a mixture of ground cavalry, and hele squadrons/battalions).
You're talking about 20,000 guys now when you add in all of the Corp support
types that join in... sometimes you get what amounts to a 'mini' Corp (like
the 24th Infantry in Desert Storm... it had over 25000 troops!) This mind
boggling formation is led by a Major General (O-8) with a Brigadier
General
XO (O-7) and as always, a Sergeant-Major.
Needless to say, this is a very diversified and complex structure that in a
constant state of change as the mission changes.
HOPS VINCET! ATWTMATMUTATB
> --- Allan Goodall <agoodall@att.net> wrote:
> Just to throw a historical perspective into the
While the Civil War armies had a love affair with the french uniform designs,
the orginization of the 'regiment' was strictly along the lines of the British
1812 organization. I.E. 10 companies of 60 men in the regiment.
Bye for now,
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
...
> Regiments are funny in that you would have
Quoting Scott Case <tgunner@hotmail.com>:
> E-3 or E-4 (Private First Class to Corporal) 3-4
OK, the letter-number combos are ranks, but how come some of them tie to
the same ranks?
Would I be right in thinking there are 3 actual "positions" embodied in each
person? What they command, their rank and their rank letter/number
designation?
[I'm mostly a fantasy gamer. We have "normal blokes, blokes in charge,
wizardy
blokes-don't-go-near-them-ever". ]
E-3 Paygrade, uniform across all US military forces
Private First Class (PFC) Rank Title. Would be a Seaman in the Navy
I'm not sure about the last number (3-4) but I think it was individuals
or groups under that E3.
Roger Books
> On 22-Mar-02 at 04:15, Katie Lauren Lucas (katie@fysh.org) wrote:
Sorry about that, misunderstood the question.
A Fireteam (in the Modern US Army) has either 3 (in mechanized Infantry) or
4 (in light/airborne Infantry) troops and are lead by either an E-4
(Corporal/Specalist) or an E-3 Private First Class (in a pinch)
Hope that helps:)
HOPS VINCET! ATWTMATMUTATB
> --- Scott Case <tgunner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Actually, it's slotted for a buck sergeant. It's just that few units actually
have the NCOs called for on the MTOE. Usually there's 1 E5 and 1 E4.:)
Oh, and in the 2x9+5 mech MTOE, fireteams are back up
to 4 men where they belong.
> --- Scott Case <tgunner@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Fireteam- led by a E-3 or E-4 (Private First Class
Slotted for Sergeant. Frequently a SPC (or CPL) due to shortage of NCOs.
> Squad- Two fireteam led by a E-5 or E-6 ('buck'
Slotted for SSG. We usually have most of the SSGs we need, but not all, so a
senior SGT has to fill in.
> Nine guys in the light infantry... mech types
Which they changed. 2x9+5 which means 2 nine-man
squads and an HQ/HW 5 man element.
> nicknamed them 'Top'). Most US company size units
Mortar sections is pretty much light infantry only.
> medicsl vehicle, etc) and even assets from Division
Actually, the boxes on top were called MICLICs for MIne Clearing LIne Charge.
The vehicles were
AVLMs--Armored Vehicle Launched MICLICs. Which were
converted AVLBs (AVL Bridges) which weren't as needed in Storm due to a
distinct lack of rivers to cross.
and a M-113 with an
> engineer team- in Desert Storm
Squad.
> Battalion- 3-4 line companies (3 in the infantry, 4
D Company is gone nowdays.
> light infantry battalions have a recon platoon(19
Hey, mech guys get 6 120mm SP mortars in a platoon and
a scout platoon (latest trend is the 10-HMMWV scout
platoon) and an ADA platoon.
> like 200 guys), a support battalion (a BIG outfit!)
After Storm, the Corps Engineer Batallions habitually attached to the
divisions became converted to a
slimmed-down (3 line companies with 2 line platoons
vice the 4 line companies of 3 line platoons, and the A&B got slimmed down to
the modern A&O, and we lost our E Co bridge weenies) Combat Engineer batallion
and they put a total 3 of them and a brigade HQ in each heavy division. Which
meant you got 1 BN per maneuver BDE and 1 CO per maneuver BN.