1: You should use 3 suppressions. 1 isn't enough to pin figures. 3 with
reactivations is sometimes not enough...;)
2: Since a figure uses motivation level to remove suppresion, limiting
suppresion to motivation level is a double penalty for the low motivation
troops and will make for "heroic" high motivation characters. I don't like
this (YMMV). You already have an easy roll to remove given a 1 motivation. And
even heros get pinned by a wall of hot death...
3: HMGs vs. LMGs. vs. SAWs - someone pointed out (via a wonderful
URL - written by a US Marine I'm thinking) a bit about the use of
suppression and aggressive attack even in the defence. One of the comments
made was that the HMG is not necessarily better at
suppression - it fires slower. It's rounds have more penetration, but
the higher ROF from the lighter weapon may give better suppression. HMGs are
good for killing light vehicles and for attacking at long ranges.
4: The problem with some of the beaten zone target engagement rules I've seen
suggested lately is the failure to mention things like blocked arcs of fire
(probably obvious) or the danger to figures of a friendly nature anywhere near
the beaten zone of autofire weapons. Area suppression weapons rarely allow
"selective" targetting. You tend to spray an area and try to avoid doing it
when your buddies are
nearby - though gamers will often try to fire into or very near their
buddies. This is risky. Heck, I remember one ex where we used MILES
gear and fired most of the time with rifles on semi-auto and there
were STILL a number of Friendly Fire casualties. On FA, I'd hate to imagine.
Here's a better question. Enemies hunkered down behind a berm 20m out.... my
guy fires his SAW on FA to rake the position and keep their heads down. He
doesn't try to kill them, just prevent them from moving. How do we do this in
FMA? I activate, and fire. They are down out of LoS and can't be hit. On their
activation, they can stand up and move to wherever. If you have overwatch, you
can hold your fire until they appear, but even then that isn't actually what
might happen
in RL where you'd be chunking out short bursts to keep them down - no
chance of a kill, but they might be hard pressed to even think of moving.
Suggestions? There is no way I know of to suppress a position or piece of
cover such that coming out of it is dangerous...
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Here's a better question. Enemies hunkered down behind a berm 20m
Well you could have a create beaten zone action (Similar to ASL firelanes)
which allows you to lay down a marker that will attack anything moving through
it by some lesser die type (Ala a D6 plus quality) OR you could
just make a raised reaction test (say +2 or qualitydr/3) for anyone
trying to run through it. Of course the marker would be the center of some
radius (2 or 3")
RE: AUto fire I've been using Tom's ruules and they work fine. Though the
concept of this beaten zone would make a nice addition (to SG2 also)
On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:12:32 -0400, "Thomas Barclay"
> <Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca> wrote:
> Area suppression weapons rarely allow "selective" targetting. You tend
Okay, using the auto fire rules I posted yesterday I'd probably make some
changes with regard to this. If an automatic weapon is fired at a group of
figures, the start and end point of the "line" across which the weapon will
fire would be indicated. For instance, if it was spraying a 4" wide area, the
ends of a 4" wide line would be indicated. At least one target figure would
have to be on that line. The die modifier would be based on the length of the
line (not the number of figures along that line).
Now, after doing that, all figures within the arc of the weapon would be
attacked, friendly or enemy, within the same range band as the line. The arc
is taken by holding a ruler from one end of the line back to the firing
figure, then from the firing figure to the other end of the line. I tried this
on a table, using golf tees as indicators. Worked easily enough.
Basically it's a beaten zone. The width of the beaten zone is up to the
player, and the depth is based on the depth of a range band.
> Here's a better question. Enemies hunkered down behind a berm 20m
I suggest a variation on SG2's "spotting by fire" rules. Follow the rules for
firing at the enemy as though they were out in the open, but a hit results in
a suppression marker only. Shift the die down based on terrain, with full
covering terrain (such is that berm, or a solid wall) giving hard cover
advantages. Tie this in with automatic fire rules, and you have a SAW capable
of firing at a number of figures out of sight, with each one possibly
receiving a suppression marker but no actual damage.
I'm not sure what to do, though, if a major hit is scored as opposed to a
minor hit. Require a morale roll on a major hit? Give two suppression markers
on a major hit? Maybe there doesn't need to be a difference...
> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> 3: HMGs vs. LMGs. vs. SAWs - someone pointed out (via a wonderful
The thing about HMG's vs LMGs IS the penetration. The NVA Hated the M2HB
(.50 Cal MG) because it had long range and gobs of penetration. 7.62 will cut
down a small tree..50 will go through the tree no problem. Getting shot at by
an M2HB would have me looking for some really thick cover and
trying to get under it.
> Allan Goodall wrote:
> Okay, using the auto fire rules I posted yesterday I'd probably make
Explain the DR modifier in detail. Can I use an example to illustrate and you
tell me if I'm off base? A soldier uses a SAW for "area firing". Say that a
SAW is normally an impact D8, For every multiple of 1" (or 2" maybe) it goes
down a die
type? Or are you talking making -DRMs. What goes into limiting the size
of the band? Or is it range constant.
> Now, after doing that, all figures within the arc of the weapon would
The arc
> is taken by holding a ruler from one end of the line back to the
But what limitations are put into effect to limit the size of the beaten zone
(say I want to make one the width of the table? <grin> Note that this system
is not too much different than TOM's, which I'll summarize.
Step one: When you make up your stat cards before the game you have the length
of the area fire at any given range band. ie. range band one= 2"; range band
2= 3"; range band 3= 5" (Note I'm just making these up to hurry it along.)
Also on the card, based on weapon type is how many attacks a given automatic
weapon can make using burst (i.e. 3) or Full Auto (i.e. 8) as well as how
lethal it is (Say semi=d10, burst = D8, FA=D6).
Step two: Our intrepid SAW gunner is one Overwatch, eyeing a street corner. A
daring enemy squad attempts to haul ass across the street. They begin to run.
The SAW gunner activates opportunity fire. Lets say the enemy are at rangeband
three. (Whatever that is), which happens to allow a 5" fan. The Gunner sets
out a tape measure or straight edge and lays out the limits of the fan (using
golf tees or whatever per your description).
Step three: Anything within that fan is attacked. If two guys are caught in
the fan and the gunner is using burst fire, then he has (in our example) 3
attacks to divvy up on those two guys. He attacks closest to farthest, say
spending 2 attacks on the first guy and one on the last, both using the (Again
in our example) D8 against the enemies armor (or if you play the other way,
the enemy rolls a range band die).
A few observations. This is very lethal if either, the gunner is hitting an
area where he can see a bunch of figures, OR if a squad has activated a number
of figures together and they a re all running across the street at once. But
what if you are playing where you only allow one figure to be activated at a
time? This greatly diminishes the effect of the fire as a way to suppress an
area people will be running through. See my fire lanes below:
> >Here's a better question. Enemies hunkered down behind a berm 20m
A possible suggestion: (a slight variation of what I posted last night).
Fire Lanes: (2 action event). Upon overwatch activation, the gunner sets down
a marker (or markers) per the above stated procedure (either one) These
markers show an imagined lane between the gunner on out to the marker.
Anything running across that lane is attacked per the auto weapon rules above.
(Either Alan's or Tom's variation). But here's the kicker. The Gunner has an
amount of attacks per whether he's full auto or burst either 3 or 8 above. And
anyone coming across the fire lane gets attacked until the number of bursts is
used up. Perhaps a better way would be to only allow one attack per figure
caught within the crossfire. You could diminish the effectiveness say one or
two dice down if you aren't using Tom's auto rules. In fact you could limit
this further, say a gunner must have an Assistant gunner with him and limit
this to crew served (call the other guy a spotter in more advanced techs or do
away with it all together).
What this captures is: Many times MGs lay down a fire lane. It's no surprise
to anyone there. Anyone who crosses the street falls under it's influence.
It's as obvious (even if they only fire a few rounds) to those trying to cross
the area as if the guy had a big red laser beam and was shining it down the
street. While the troops trying the move through that area amy not even have
come under attack by the weapon, they suffer a sort of mental suppression
result just by knowing the gun is out there and zeroed down the street. Note
that normally you find this out the hard was as the first guy runs across.
As an additional idea, once a fire lane has been established you could enforce
a
+1 task check for anyone trying to willingly cross this lane.
Note that either this Fire lane rule or the Beaten Zone rule I posted earlier
serve the same purpose, to deny an enemy a free ride across a certain piece of
terrain and in effect serve to suppress them where they are without penalizing
them for being under good cover.
> On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:47:42 -0700, Los <los@cris.com> wrote:
> Explain the DR modifier in detail. Can I use an example to illustrate
Sure!
> A soldier uses a SAW for "area firing". Say that a SAW is
Impact D8 or firepower D8? I'll assume Firepower...
> For every multiple of 1" (or 2" maybe) it goes down a die
Okay, the firepower of the weapon is D8. It's a SAW. If he is firing at a
single target the firepower is unmodified. If he is firing along an arc no
wider than 2" at his "target range", then the firepower is still D8. If he is
firing with an arc greater than 2" but up to 4" the firepower would drop to
D6. If the arc is 6" wide, the firepower would drop to D4. Any wider than 6"
and the die would have to be modified below D4. At that point, the fire is too
dispersed and doesn't work.
> But what limitations are put into effect to limit the size of the
No, it's not too much different. I just tied it in with my suggested automatic
fire rules.
The limitation is the amount of a die shift down on the firepower. A firepower
D10 weapon would be limited to firing no wider than 8".
> Step one: When you make up your stat cards before the game you have the
Also on the
> card, based on weapon type is how many attacks a given automatic weapon
My system is a little simpler as it doesn't require setting anything up ahead
of time. It's more flexible as it allows varying widths of the area of effect
as determined by the player firing the weapon.
> Step two: Our intrepid SAW gunner is one Overwatch, eyeing a street
Same thing with my system, except he can decide the width of the "fan" from 2"
to whatever he wants within the weapon's firepower limit.
> Step three: Anything within that fan is attacked. If two guys are
Okay, in my system you would roll once against all the guys caught in the fan.
If the fan's width was 6", the firepower die would be shifted down two levels.
The attacker would roll firepower and quality, versus the defender's range die
for each target in the fan.
> A few observations.
That's a good point... unless the suppression area stays on the table from the
moment it is placed until the next time the figure that did the firing is
activated.
> A possible suggestion: (a slight variation of what I posted last
I snipped the fire lane example. That could work. The problem I can see is a
lot of fire lanes from multiple attackers, resulting in some confusion. I'd
have to play it out, though, to see if it would be a problem in actuality.
> Note that either this Fire lane rule or the Beaten Zone rule I posted
That makes sense. I just hope it's not too complicated when multiple attempts
are done during a game.
> Allan Goodall wrote:
> Okay, the firepower of the weapon is D8. It's a SAW. If he is firing
If he is
> firing with an arc greater than 2" but up to 4" the firepower would
OK I'm tracking. I'll have to give it a spin on one of my playtests.
> I snipped the fire lane example. That could work. The problem I can
Well of course if one is going to have all his gunners setting up fire lanes
(at reduced FP) then he won't have those weapons around to fire them at high
value targets when he needs them. It's his call. (Only meant to be one more
tool in the box, not a game winner).
Cheers...