My Brain, she works.... and I have several ideas.... probably for the detail
conscious.... at least in getting it down pat and in figuring out ranges and
stuff... but most of it will go onto a card and you'll won't have to do any
gross math later...
Idea: Weapons range bands a product of troop quality (brilliant idea of St.
Jon). However some weapons get crappy faster than others. (Obvious). Don't
like the idea of restricting to just setting a max range.... how about this?
Range bands: All weapons have a basic range of X", where X is the quality of
the troop. For regular 8". Range bands are doubles
(8"/16"/32"/64"/128"). Aiming doubles that again. Then there is a
weapon modifier. Standard AR 1.0, SMG 0.6 (yes I precalculate these bands
before the game), Pistol 0.4. Sniper rifle might be 2.0 with a decent scope.
So this would yield: (in the hands of a regular)
Standard Pistol (9mm): 3"/6"/13"/26"/51.2" Burst: no Ammo: 15
FAuto: No
Standard SMG (9mm): 5"/10"/19"/38"/77" Burst: 5 rd. Ammo: 30 FAuto:
30 rd
Standard AR (7mm): 8"/16"/32"/64"/128" Burst: 3 rd. Ammo: 30 FAuto:
30 rd
Sniper Rifle (7mm): 16"/32"/64"/128"/256" Burst: no Ammo:
5 FAuto: No
SAW (7mm): 8"/16"/32"/64"/128" Burst: 5 rd. Ammo: 30 FAuto:
30 rd
with a belt
FAuto: 50 rounds (1/2 belt)
Standard Shotgun (18mm/12 ga.): 3"/6"/13"/26"/51.2" Burst: no Ammo:
5 FA: No DangSp: 0.25"(Wpn Mod 0.4)
Sawed Off Shotgun: 1"/3"/6"/13"/25" Burst: no Ammo:
5 FA: No DangSp: 0.5"(Wpn Mod 0.2)
AutoShotgun (18mm/12 ga.): 3"/6"/13"/26"/51.2" Burst: 3 rd.
Ammo: 10 FA: 5 rd. DangSp: 0.25"(Wpn Mod 0.4)
FP is a function of firing mode (which is determined in part by weapon):
Semi Auto: 1d8 ammo use: 1 round Burst: 1d10 ammo use: burst FA: 1d12 ammo
use: some number of rounds up to a max
The difference in the firing modes is their other effects:
Semi Auto all have the same character. Aimed fire at a target, but not with
long pauses to aim and track the target. (unless you spend an aim action ahead
of time)
Burst: Resolve fire as 1 RB further away. If used to spray, the following
procedure is used. Shooter may engage a maximum of burst
rounds/2 round up targets (2 for a 3 round burst, 3 for a 5 round
burst). Shooter chooses a RB (say RB2 - which is IYRC resolved for
attack purposes as RB3). Then the shooter picks a line of fire with a string
or tape. This is the axis of a cone for the 'beaten zone' of the suppressive
fire. To determine the extents of the cone, the firer measures along the axis
to the end of that RB, then at that point places two counter to mark the width
of the cone. These must be placed around the axis, though one may sit on the
axis. The counters may not be farther apart than 0.5" in RB1, 1" in RB 2, 2"
in RB 3, 4" in RB 4, or 8" in RB 5. So this will define the edges of the cone.
They can be closer together if the firer so choses. The area (and hence the
figures) affected are then calculated by seeing who falls within the
extents of the cone defined by two lines - one from the firer to the
one cone corner marker, the other from the firer to the other cone
corner marker - and the start and endpoints of the RB in question.
So someone firing at RB 3 for instance with a standard AR would go out to 32",
place two markers no more than 2" apart, using string (perhaps) denote the
cone formed by those two markers and the firing figure, then determine which
figures are potential targets in that cone (right RB). Those figures are then
attacked (once each) in order
from closest-to-firer to furthest from firer. If an intervening object
or target blocks part of the cone, then obviously that part is not attacked.
However, the intervening figure or target should be attacked instead. You
can't fire through someone at short range to hit a target at long range,
unless they are lying down or in a trench or some such thing.
FA: Resolve fire as 2 RB further away. If used to spray, perform a similar
determination of maximum number of targets (except use rounds
fired/4, and max rounds is indicated by the weapon definition). The
spray endpoints may be up to twice as far apart - 1" at RB1, 2" at
RB2, etc out to 8" at RB5. The same comments on intervening figures applies as
to bursts. The only additional matter for FA fire is that all attacks must be
allocated. If all targets have been engaged at least once, the remaining
attacks may be allotted by a second pass if the firer wishes. They will be
applied closest to firer first.
Shotguns and danger space: Shotguns attack an area around their target. The
area is RB x DS. So a normal shotgun at RB 4 would attack an area 1" to either
side of the target. This is resolved after any autofire hits are allotted (so
someone using an autoshotgun is truly terrifying).
Shotguns also do abysmally versus armour: Any armoured target should get a 2
dice positive shift for armour vs. shotgun, unless they have PA (full armour
d12 style) in which case the shotgun won't even bother
them. This assumes the shotgun has lead/steel buckshot. If firing
birdshot, make that 3 shifts (and 1 shift for unarmoured targets -
birdshot is crappy as a man killer). If firing military flechette ammo, there
is a 1 die shift, and even PA can be affected (a sliver might penetrate a
joint or face screen).
Note too that posture should affect ranges. I think the useful way to
represent this without much math (addition or subtraction only) is to treat it
as follows: standing: normal
sitting/kneeling: +1"/+2"/+4"/+8"/+16" (so a rifle would then be
9/18/36/72/144")
prone (resting) (also kneeling with a brace of some sort like a wall):
+2"/+4"/+8"/+16"/+32" (so a rifle would then be 10"/20"/40"/80"/160".
So, a few examples:
Red Ranger (Reg Rifleman) fires his assault rifle from a standing
position normally (semi-auto) at Joe Target at 75m (37.5"). That is
inside the 64" RB (RB 4) for the standard AR, so the defender will use
d10. The attacker rolls quality (d8) + FP (d8 for semi-auto). This
will consume 1 round. If Red wished to aim for an action, then fire, he'd be
firing in RB3, so the defender would have used d8 instead.
Sniper Susie (Vet Rifleman) fires from a prone/rest position with a
scoped sniper rifle. Did not have time for an aim action (just got into
position) at Joe Target at 120m (Joe likes standing around in the
open it seems). Her RB would normally be 16"/32"/64"/128"/256", but
with the prone modifiers that is 28"/36"/72"/144"/288". At 120m, Joe
is at 60". That is in RB3. She fires normal fire and Joe gets a d8 in
defence. Her fire is quality (d10) + semi-auto firing mode (d8) vs.
his defence of d8. If she'd had time to aim, his defence would be d6.
RockNRollRonnie (Reg SAW gunner) standing, decides Joe is just begging to be
killed and fires a 20 round FA burst into Joe's neighbourhood. Joe is sadly by
himself, so all 5 attacks are resolved against Joe. Joe is 60m from Ronnie,
which is normally in Ronnie's RB 3. Due to FA fire, Ronnie is firing at RB 5.
So Joe defends against all 5 attacks
at d12, but there are 5 attacks coming in at d12 for fire mode + d8
for Ronnie. More than likely Joe will get hit.
Sneaky Slim (a Reg ganger with a Sawed off shotgun) has snuck up to 6m to the
left of Joe behind some cover. He plans to give Joe Both Barrells of his sawed
off shotgun. He will roll d8 for FP (semi auto) but he gets two of these (one
for each barrell) and a d8 for his own quality. The defender is in RB 2 (just
barely) and defends on a d6. Things look bad for our hero. If Joe had been
standing within RB x 0.5 or 1" of another figure, that figure would get
attacked with the shotgun too.
As you can see, this system requires you to do some math ahead of time to
figure RB for the weapons, but after than, the application of the other mods
is surprisingly simple. It handles danger space attacks and beaten zones. It
relates the FP die to RoF (which does not drop off
with range) and defenders defend by range, not by quality - I don't
care how elite you are, if I shoot my rifle at you at 200m you are not
dodging! It gives weapons the ranges they might actually reach (though with a
defender rolling d12s at those ranges, your odds of a hit are
low).
Other than that it takes a bit to setup your weapons and your squad cards,
once that is done, it will run fairly quick and many mechanics echo SG2. RB
are quality based so quality is the big determiner, but your surivability as a
target is range and cover based (ie get some or get shot).
Comments?
<Starts putting an extra layer of sandbags on the bunker....>
BTW how many seconds orminutes is one FMA turn supposed to represent? (I ask
this so we can figure ammo consumption)
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Range bands:
30 rd
> with a belt
Ammo: 10
> FA: 5 rd. DangSp: 0.25"(Wpn Mod 0.4)
Minor point. first I would cut confusion for the math impaired and just make
the burst either 4 and 6 rds respectively, or better yet just say how many
attacks on Burst and FA (i.e. SMG 3 attacks on burst, 8 on FA)
Re: resolving burst and FA areas of attacks (short of a nifty plastic
sliderule compass gizmo that you overaly the attacked area) A quick and dirty
way (Without all the surveyor tool requirements<g>), albeit less acurate might
be to just range step it, say at RB1=.5, RB2=1, RB3=2, RB4=3, RB5=4. This way
you only lay out one thread and measure. Might be a tad quicker particular
inside.
Though it would be pretty easy to construct a little thread+stick
contraption to lay out a template for your MG fire.
> FP is a function of firing mode (which is determined in part by
This should use at least 2-3 rounds even in semi unless you are doing
aimed fire.
> Burst: 1d10 ammo use: burst
Wait shouldn't this be completely opposite since semi is more accurate? Semi
should get the higher FP than FA though you get a chance to hit more guys with
that lower attack in FA? This way I think you can then dispense with teh range
shifts below.
> Burst: Resolve fire as 1 RB further away. If used to spray, the
<snip>
> FA: Resolve fire as 2 RB further away. If used to spray, perform a
<snip>
> Shotguns and danger space:
Good
> Shotguns also do abysmally versus armour: Any armoured target should
All these effects should be scenario specific. If you are doing Mars Attacks
vs Jim Bob (No offense to any rednecks out
there) they come in fine, but a GZG-universe toting soldier (say for
CQC) will have ensured that he's carrying Slugs, flechettes etc or even a
multiple round type cassette for his weapon. BTW these Shotguns could also
have otherr neat effects such as blowing off hinges and locks (But that'll be
specified in the CQC suppliment I'm working on)
> Note too that posture should affect ranges. I think the useful way to
Did I miss something in the rules? Is there a differnce between standing,
kneeling and Prone (BTW Jon make some damn porne SG2 figs!!!!) I've been using
In position in my FMA tests.
> Other than that it takes a bit to setup your weapons and your squad
You need to get one of the rocket scientists on this list to come up with a
little applet to figure all that math out for ya! <grin> Sort of like the FT
ship designer etc.
Well it's a bit more in depth than I had in mind but as per our offline
discussions we were both seeing a need for area fire in this game.
I also wish there was a way to bring this a tad closer to stargrunt. What I'm
beating around the bush about is the ability to move multiple figures in one
activation. Something like if you are within two inches of your squad leader
and everyone passes a task check, then they can move/fire together.
Makes leaders a tad more important in FMA, allows for some coordinated moves
and fire groups. Would be especially important in CQB and room clearing. The
downside is people that close would fall under the effect of your area fire so
you can weigh the benifits vs hazards..
> <Starts putting an extra layer of sandbags on the bunker....>
Oh yeah what about lasers and gauss rifles and disruptor beams and...
> Los wrote:
> Did I miss something in the rules? Is there a differnce between
Oops I meant PRONE figures. Jon already makes porno figures... <grin>
Subject: Re: FMA Skirmish Weapon Ranges and Area Fire
I reply to Los:
BTW how many seconds orminutes is one FMA turn supposed to represent? (I ask
this so we can figure ammo consumption)
---------------------- REPLY -----------------------
I figured fairly short. I don't recall. 15 s?
---------------------- END REPLY -----------------------
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Range bands:
Minor point. first I would cut confusion for the math impaired and just make
the burst either 4 and 6 rds respectively, or better yet just say how many
attacks on Burst and FA (i.e. SMG 3 attacks on burst, 8 on FA)
---------------------- REPLY -----------------------
Well that works, but we all know that 1) if you don't have a burst selector,
you tend to fire (sometimes) more or less rounds. 2) If you only have 2 rounds
left, you should still be able to burst. 3) Not all weapons in RL have a set #
of rounds evenly divisible.
But, OTOH, What you say makes some sense at least for defining standardized
weapons....
---------------------- END REPLY -----------------------
Re: resolving burst and FA areas of attacks (short of a nifty plastic
sliderule compass gizmo that you overaly the attacked area) A quick and dirty
way (Without all the surveyor tool requirements<g>), albeit less acurate might
be to just range step it, say at RB1=.5, RB2=1, RB3=2, RB4=3, RB5=4. This way
you only lay out one thread and measure. Might be a tad quicker particular
inside.
---------------------- REPLY -----------------------
Well, you really just need a string, a tape, and two pennies. But you could
just set a fixed width. I'm a fan of cones, but you could just set a fixed
width and it would work well and easily.
---------------------- END REPLY -----------------------
Though it would be pretty easy to construct a little thread+stick
contraption to lay out a template for your MG fire.
> FP is a function of firing mode (which is determined in part by
This should use at least 2-3 rounds even in semi unless you are doing
aimed fire.
---------------------- REPLY -----------------------
It is single shot because of the time scale.... and because I wanted there to
be ammo tracking.
---------------------- END REPLY -----------------------
> Burst: 1d10 ammo use: burst
Wait shouldn't this be completely opposite since semi is more accurate? Semi
should get the higher FP than FA though you get a chance to hit more guys with
that lower attack in FA? This way I think you can then dispense with teh range
shifts below.
---------------------- REPLY -----------------------
I see your point. That could work, though calling it FP then makes less sense.
The thing is, firing bursts at a target you can see seems to me likely to give
you (if you are at short ranges) better odds of a casualty (more rounds in the
target area) and better odds of suppression. This occurs through a larger die
type, not necessarily being able to engage more targets.
Hmmm. Your idea has merit though. I'll think about a contrarian scheme.
Accuracy might be the new name... FP just sounds wrong. More on this later on.
---------------------- END REPLY -----------------------
> Shotguns also do abysmally versus armour: Any armoured target should
All these effects should be scenario specific. If you are doing Mars Attacks
vs Jim Bob (No offense to any rednecks out there) they come in
fine, but a GZG-universe toting soldier (say for CQC) will have
ensured that he's carrying Slugs, flechettes etc or even a multiple round type
cassette for his weapon. BTW these Shotguns could also have otherr neat
effects such as blowing off hinges and locks (But that'll be specified in the
CQC suppliment I'm working on)
---------------------- REPLY -----------------------
Agreed, but some comment on ammo types should be present as shotgun ammo is
different in a profound way. I agree most military shotguns
will either be multi-ammo type or flechette. Shok-Lok(tm) and other
ammo types may well be feasible as well for breach operations.
---------------------- END REPLY -----------------------
> Note too that posture should affect ranges. I think the useful way
Did I miss something in the rules? Is there a differnce between standing,
kneeling and Prone (BTW Jon make some damn porne SG2 figs!!!!) I've been using
In position in my FMA tests.
---------------------- REPLY -----------------------
I didn't see it, but in a Skirmish game, there probably should be. We all know
laying on the range, not having to support the weapon, your accuracy
increases. We also know using a rest when kneeling or sitting makes you pretty
accurate too. And as you've pointed out, posture should affect how grenades
affect you. And
it occurs to me your target profile is a big function of this too - a
prone figure being fired on is MUCH harder to hit than a standing figure in
the open.
---------------------- END REPLY -----------------------
You need to get one of the rocket scientists on this list to come up with a
little applet to figure all that math out for ya! <grin> Sort of like the FT
ship designer etc.
---------------------- REPLY -----------------------
I'd do up a bunch of standard weapon tables so people could just plonk stuff
onto their squad cards with little or no math req'd. Though in
general, your idea has merit too - a little applet or a small VB style
program to do all the calcs for you. Hmmm.
---------------------- END REPLY -----------------------
Well it's a bit more in depth than I had in mind but as per our offline
discussions we were both seeing a need for area fire in this game.
I also wish there was a way to bring this a tad closer to stargrunt. What I'm
beating around the bush about is the ability to move multiple figures in one
activation. Something like if you are within two inches of your squad leader
and everyone passes a task check, then they can move/fire together.
Makes leaders a tad more important in FMA, allows for some coordinated moves
and fire groups. Would be especially important in CQB and room clearing. The
downside is people that close would fall under the effect of your area fire so
you can weigh the benifits vs hazards..
---------------------- REPLY -----------------------
How bout this: Joint activation for units under a commander: Commander gives
an order. If it is comms, he must make a comms roll. (can be jammed a la EW).
If it gets through, he rolls his quality versus the combination of his and his
targets motivation. If he can yell at the target in person (say target is
closer than commander quality meters (5" for veteran, 6" for elite,
etc)), give him a +1 on this roll.
For each guy he succeeds, he may activate them simultaneously to follow the
order he just gave (which must be succinct). If he says "Squad, up and rush
the bunker", then that is what his figures must do. Obviously, the # of
figures affected should be a consequence of
quality level - limit it to quality level # figs - 10 for a vet, 8 for
a regular. If you activate subordiante sergeants and stuff, they too may
attempt to activate their subordinates in cascade.
Note: This is powerful, but if the other side has used OW and uses
interrupt/snap fire options, it isn't really that gross. If they
haven't they almost deserve what they get.
---------------------- END REPLY -----------------------
> <Starts putting an extra layer of sandbags on the bunker....>
Oh yeah what about lasers and gauss rifles and disruptor beams and...
Los
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> > FP is a function of firing mode (which is determined in part by
Maybe then just talk how many attacks you get per mag rather than how many
rounds (I still think in 15 seconds given on aimed semi-auto fire at
anything other than longer ranges you would be popping off several rounds per
target.) But it's really slicing hairs. BTW what's the ammo tracking
mechanism? And is there then a reload action?
> >
Of course you already address this with the fact that firing auto gives you
more attacks per firing action. That covers the getting hit with more rounds.
You could expend two bursts on the guy to get him down, even if impact fails
on the first pass.
> Did I miss something in the rules? Is there a differnce between
How would this come into effect, Range band shifts? (negated by aimed fire)
Might be too harsh though...We could simplify it into up or down (same as in
position) with one shift instead of three (Unless you get onto die roll
modifiers which is what the system avoids) I'll have to playtest some options
this weekend.
> I also wish there was a way to bring this a tad closer to stargrunt.
OK I understand he rolls his quality die, (Say a reg D8 beating a 2) now he's
shouting to two guys within 3". Both are reg 3s. SO in both cases the command
attempt has to beat a 3? Or are you saying that in both attempts
he must roll higher than a 5? (3+2) (I like the latter)
> Obviously, the # of figures affected should be a consequence of
Seems a little high, Needs to be some combo of experience and quality BUT the
downside is that anyone who keeps guys that close together so they can all be
controlled also subjects them to all kinds of nasty things like your MG auto
fire and grenade bursts so there is a tradeoff.
I see this also: The leader has his two actions. He wants his guys to follow.
He uses one action to yell and one to move. (Because he needs at time to lead
by example) Or does his command action cost the rest of his turn. Can he move
then pass on actions? Do the recipients get one action or two? I suppose the
simple way is they get two. Can a leader activate to subordinate leaders, say
fire team leaders, who then pass on their activation's to the men (assuming
the right checks are made) so you have a whole bunch going at once?
> [quoted text omitted]