I'd like to clarify a few things. (and yeah, I and a lot of others can
probably settle these just fine between us using common sense)
i) Can a figure fire with the same weapon in both actions? (In SG2, you
cannot).
ii) Can a leader transfer to the same subordinate twice in an activation
?
(In SG2, we don't allow this).
iii) Is there any reaction test to enter or hold your ground in close combat?
Must you make a combat move to enter close combat? On the whole, entering
close combat is strictly easy in these rules (no morale, no variable charge
range, only reaction or overwatch fire to interrupt the charge, no follow ups
or overruns).
iv) Is it a GM's job to determine when morale-type reaction tests are
taken? There are no guidelines for when a force might test to flee, etc.
v) Do you have to take an isolationtest on a transferred action? (eg. Sgt
Fiset (Veteran) is only 8" from Cpl Grundy and succeeds in transfering an
action to him. However, Grundy is Green and Isolated. Does Grundy have to test
to act (ie. might he hesitate)?) I can see arguments both ways; Grundy is
indeed isolated, but Fiset has had to overcome the sum of the motivations in
order to transfer the action, so maybe a further test is not required.
vi) Thrown grenades refer to character strength die types, though that topic
isn't covered anywhere else. (GM's judgement, I expect)
vii) What is the spread effect of a shotgun? What is the sustained fire
ability of a Light SMG? They are a bit expensive, so significant, but not
clearly spelled out. (This really needs some clarification)
viii) Area effect explosive damage weapons seem to have an accuracy number,
and variable impact based on range from centre of impact. The actual
description of how to resolve these is not given (though there's lots on how
to place them and deviate them).
Nitpicks: Couldn't find combat move defined, but referenced under suppression
in the open. Dice for combat move vaguely referenced in movement rate chart.
Forgot a silly question:
If you're hit but not wounded (because you won the Impact vs. Armour roll),
are you suppressed (assuming your armour is light enough to be threatened by
the weapon)?
> If you're hit but not wounded (because you won the Impact vs. Armour
And if you're wounded, what effect does it have (aside from messing up your
uniform and giving you the chance to toss off a heroic, "It's just blood, it's
not important")?
And since snipers are "specialists", I take it some weapons require
specialists? In which case, no doubt there's some penalty when Private Partz
scoops the thing up from his fallen comrade and starts pulling the trigger?
Power Armor as a melee weapon is costed as +100 points, but from the
example PA trooper it appears that's the same 100 pts as he pays for the armor
to begin with?
> And if you're wounded, what effect does it have (aside from messing up
I agree. Each figure should have an MOS, that would define that
figures specialty and give penalties when operating outside that MOS.
For example, a character has a Heavy Weapon MOS and can operate the AT missile
launcher without penalty. If he gets greased and a grunt comes up to fire the
launcher, he would fire at a reduced efficiency.
> Forgot a silly question:
Yes. All hits automatically give a suppression as well. It might make sense to
even extend this to heavier armoured targets, so that actually being hit by
something (even if it just bounces off) will suppress, while just coming under
firefrom light weapons won't.
> I'd like to clarify a few things. (and yeah, I and a lot of others can
Provided it isn't a single-shot weapon, I think yes.
> ii) Can a leader transfer to the same subordinate twice in an
Gut feeling says no, but is this an unneccesary restriction? (Given that we
want to keep the number of arbitrary and special rules to a bare minimum)
> iii) Is there any reaction test to enter or hold your ground in close
That's a bit of the rules I haven't finished writing yet! Remember, these were
released to the list in a very rough form, and many bits are incomplete. I
think that the reaction tests as you mention are both good
ideas, as is the combat-move roll.
> iv) Is it a GM's job to determine when morale-type reaction tests are
One thing I need to put in is an overall "force morale" mechanism, as well as
individual reactions.
> v) Do you have to take an isolationtest on a transferred action ? (eg.
Sgt
> Fiset (Veteran) is only 8" from Cpl Grundy and succeeds in transfering
I'd say no further test required - the transfer of action overcomes the
isolation.
> vi) Thrown grenades refer to character strength die types, though that
Another case of the draft being cobbled together from incomplete bits!! Put it
on the list of things still to be done....
> vii) What is the spread effect of a shotgun ? What is the sustained
See above comment...... :-)
> viii) Area effect explosive damage weapons seem to have an accuracy
And again....
> Nitpicks: Couldn't find combat move defined, but referenced under
Yes, one of the draft versions (from whihc the movement rules were taken)
didn't have combat moves, but I think we'll use them - they work well.
> If you're hit but not wounded (because you won the Impact vs. Armour
Ah, right, I thought it was in there somewhere - maybe not!
Being wounded (if using the "full" version of the combat system) puts you down
to only one action per activation for the rest of the game. Whether it is
worth the complication of adding any extra effects, we'll see as testing
progresses....
[snip]
> And since snipers are "specialists", I take it some weapons require
Oh goody, more bits to write.... ;-)
> Power Armor as a melee weapon is costed as +100 points, but from the
I think so, I'll have to have a look at it again to be sure!
> On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Ground Zero Games wrote:
> >I'd like to clarify a few things. (and yeah, I and a lot of others
Ah, people have started to post about FMA! Interesting phenomenon - jon
posts FMA to the list. List drops dead for two days, except for a couple of
vacumnheads (er, FT players) arguing. Then list lurches to life again after
we've all had 48 to absorb St St St Jon's latest miracle...
> >
so machine pistols, SMGs, SAWs... what about autopistols, assault rifles, and
similar?
> >
We did a very small playtest last night (4 troops vs 4) and had the attacker
pass a straight Reaction test to start CC. Using combat move sounds good as
well.
> That's a bit of the rules I haven't finished writing yet! Remember,
Aside from the Suppression marker tests, the only other test we added via
houserules was "All friendly characters within LOS of a casualty must make a
Reaction test."
> One thing I need to put in is an overall "force morale" mechanism, as
(eg. Sgt
> >Fiset (Veteran) is only 8" from Cpl Grundy and succeeds in
Along with "what happens when a grenade actually goes off?". We know how to
throw them & bounce them (mostly) but not how to make them go BANG!
:)
> >vii) What is the spread effect of a shotgun ? What is the sustained
Mmmm - is the SMG's ability what's needed to use both actions to fire?
Makes sense to me...
The shotgun...dunno...bonus Firepower die in Close range, because you're more
likely to splatter someone?
And back to grenades: how could we resolve ACR/GL combos?
> >viii) Area effect explosive damage weapons seem to have an accuracy
The whole system seems to work well - it's very fast, anyway. We did
that
4-per-side playtest in less than 45 minutes, with pauses to argue &
invent stopgap rules!
Great rulesset, already! Just the holes...the
grenades-that-don't-go-off!!!
> On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Ground Zero Games wrote:
I meant single-shot as in a one-shot disposable, or something that needs
reloading after 1 shot, eg: a single tube rocket launcher. An action of firing
with most other weapons is assumed to be several rounds fired anyway.
> >
(eg. Sgt
> >Fiset (Veteran) is only 8" from Cpl Grundy and succeeds in
:)
The idea is that all explosive/area effect weapons have a dice type to
use for impact value at the actual point of impact, and a blast radius band
over which the impact die drops one type. So, a warhead with a
point-of-impact value of D10 and a radius band of 2 will roll a D10
attack
at anything within 2" of the final impact point, then D8 at 2-4", D6 at
4-6" and finally D4 at 6-8". EVERYTHING within the maximum radius (in
this example, 8") gets rolled for if in LOS of the impact point, rolling
relevant warhead impact die vs. target armour. Yes, this is nasty, and the
blast diameter of the bigger warheads is quite
large, but they are supposed to be dangerous - that's why they are
expensive and should be used sparingly. Impact values and radius band
suggestions are in the weapon specs in the points costings stuff, part 2 of
the posted test material. Note that AP warheads may have to be treated
differently.....
> >vii) What is the spread effect of a shotgun ? What is the sustained
I rather like the idea they use in Shockforce (hey, they nicked some if our
ideas, so we'll nick a few of theirs back....), where other figures close to
the target figure may also get hit in the burst. Need to work on defining this
for the rules....
> And back to grenades: how could we resolve ACR/GL combos?
Suggest 1 action to select grenade mode, then one to fire it (use
grenade/rocket fire rules); this may seem harsh on a purpose-built combo
weapon, but it may prevent munchkin abuse of always firing grenades rather
than anything else.
> >viii) Area effect explosive damage weapons seem to have an accuracy
See above....
> And again....
Yes, that's what we found in the in-house tests - you could get a
6-a-side
skirmish over in less than an hour, with a decent number of turns played
(enough for it to feel like a game rather than just a couple of turns),
then play another one straight afterwards with almost no pre-game work
required.
> Great rulesset, already! Just the holes...the
Now they do..... <grin>
> [quoted text omitted]
> At 12:29 PM 7/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >I'd like to clarify a few things. (and yeah, I and a lot of others
AAAGGGGHGHHHHHH!!!!!!!
I get booted from the list a couple days before He releases aother
miracle?? #%^$%%&& computer!
Can someone please forward me a copy? Pretty please?
> On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Don Greenfield wrote:
> At 12:29 PM 7/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
I've got it... along with the email addy, this time.
Incoming, Don!
Brian (yh728@victoria.tc.ca)
-DS2/SG2/FR!/HOTT-
- http://warbard.iwarp.com/games.html -
-SciFi & Fantasy Wargaming House Rules, Photos, GWAutobasher, & more-
> Don
Questions first:
I read through the current batch of answers and the one question I had from my
first read that wasn't already answered is regarding REACTION FIRE.
Can any (and/or all?) models that haven't been activated make this out
of turn shot or is it only on a one for one basis? And this is regardless of
any other action they performed in a previous turn? Just to make sure I am
clear lets say the model A on side 1, has just been activated and wondes into
sight of three models from side 2, could each of them take a REACTION FIRE
activation or could only one of them?
(I realize some common sense should prevail, but isn't part of playtesting
assuming that the reader may have no common sense?)
As for shotguns, I like the idea of taking a string and placing it's middle at
the maximum range of the weapon and then flattening out it's end by some
factor,in inch's,(spread factor?) of the shotgun's range and drawing the ends
of the string back to meet at the shooter (it ends up looking like
a cone but it allows for a different betwwen a double barrel sawed-off
and longer barrelled combat shotgun) It ends up looking like this:
-
- |
Double Barreled - |
Sawed-off - |
- |
- |
-
Combat Shotgun -
- |
- |
- |
-
However this may be more detailed than desired. Perhaps something like 1
target at close range, any within 2" at Medium, and any withn 4" at long
range OR maybe having a close spread and a wide-spread weapon design
choice
where one allows 1-target/2"/4" and the otehr allows 2"/4"/8" which
cost more (and why someone might make the range shorter when designing them,
to
reduce cost (and better emulate a sawed-off). This one is much easier
to play than the string idea.
Comments anyone?
Also, I have never even seen any of the GZG products except Full Thrust (which
is quite spectacular to say the least) and I took a look at the FMA playtest
rules and I was blown away, this is a wonderful set of rules.
Later,
> As for shotguns, I like the idea of taking a string and placing its
(snip ascii art)
> However this may be more detailed than desired.
Yes indeedy.
> Along with "what happens when a grenade actually goes off?". We know
:)
Pull the pin out before you throw.
> The idea is that all explosive/area effect weapons have a dice type to
Too large, in fact. May I suggest you put the initial blast radius at whatever
you wish, then have it fall off one die type per 1", so a weapon that is D10
at 2" will be d8 at 3", d6 at 4", and d4 at 5"? This still covers a 20 meter
diameter circle.
> On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Voivode Shrike (a.k.a. Ryan) wrote:
> Questions first:
Reaction fire is in the FMA rules - just before the Overwatch rules.
> (I realize some common sense should prevail, but isn't part of
erm, won't go there...:)
> As for shotguns, I like the idea of taking a string and placing
Either of these could work. I think your firing arcs might be a bit generous,
though. Maybe 1 target in close, within 1" at Medium, within
2"
at Long range band?
> "It's not denial. I'm just very
Great quote!
> Brian Burger wrote:
List drops dead for two days, except for a couple
> of vacumnheads (er, FT players) arguing.
Remember, in space we can't here you...Grunt!!!
:-)
Bye for now,
iv) For unit morale, how about using the SG squad morale; make normal rolls
(max 1 level morale drop) & apply the appropriate morale to how you play the
action out. Keep just the one chit for the whole unit (probably with the squad
leader). This could be useful for one off games without any
sort of predefined objective (unless it's a slugfest game - last man
standing).
v) It would make for an interesting situation; the sargeant is yelling at the
FUNG to get moving, but he can't see any friendlies, only enemies...
vi) I think this refers to cybernetically enhanced goons and the like, or
possible more detailed character development in a later version?
'Neath Southern Skies - http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
Commodore Alfred K Hole - RNS Indy's Folly [CB]
Captain Nicolette O'Teen - RNMS Golden Spear [CB]
EBD Medusa
> -----Original Message-----
(eg.
> Sgt
> I get booted from the list a couple days before He releases aother
OK. Send me you email addy and I'll send you a copy.
> Ground Zero Games wrote:
In SGII you have the slightly cheezy tactic of dumping all the commander's
actions into a PA team, moving them halfway across the board in one turn. I
think the same kind of thing applies here. You could probably accelerate a PA
trooper right up to close combat with the enemy commander in a single turn...
Might be a moot point as overwatch should blow him to bits before he gets
there, but it's something to be considered.
Tom
> Ground Zero Games wrote:
That brings up another question. In a game of this scale it might be good to
keep track of ammunition in some fashion.
Perhaps the following could be used: Weapons are rated not in how many rounds
of ammunition but how many fire actions they have. Just keep a
small stack (1-4) of chits with each soldier. Once they're out, they
need to spend 1 action reloading (they are considered to have infinite reloads
however).
> Suggest 1 action to select grenade mode, then one to fire it (use
This ties in well with my above comments, except the one action is for
reloading...
This of course adds to the number of chits moving along with the miniature,
two stacks one for small arms ammo and one for the Grenade in the launcher.
Tom
How detailed are we shooting for with this game? In an earlier post I saw the
suggestion of troop archtypes and perhaps even skill or task lists come up...
Obviously we have the entire range of detail from SGII to basically and RPG
here... So where does Jon and GZG (not to mention we fans and players) want
this to fall as far as detail level?
God bless,
- Buddy
---------------------------------------------
Get paid for surfing the Web! (I'm dead serious!) www.alladvantage.com
Referral #: BXL-474
---------------------------------------------
[quoted original message omitted]
> Thomas Pope wrote:
I'd say adapt the Necromunda game mechanic. If you roll a botch, you have to
roll again to check if you've run out of ammo.
This fits in nicely with the system as more experienced troops will be
expected to have better fire discipline and possibly carry 'extra' ammo over
the their basic load.
> and RPG here... So where does Jon and GZG (not to mention we fans and
A possible design goal is *no* record keeping on paper, that is using on table
chits and markers only. Also avoid excessive detail that will bog the play in
exceptions and special cases as these have to be remembered somehow.
It would also be nice if you could summarise the rules on a single reference
card.
I too thought about tracking ammo, but thought it perhaps too detailed. The
idea of a task roll seems at about the right level of abstraction IMO.
> On 12-Jul-99 at 09:21, Barry Cadwgan (bcadwgan@fl.net.au) wrote:
Much as I avoid GW games, this mechanic and the scatter mechanic were
wonderful ideas.
> Perhaps the following could be used: Weapons are rated not in how many
ooohh...this is getting scary. You realize that the amount of amunition and
reloads would change acording to the quality die. That untrained militia would
shoot up his ammo quicker than that grizzled veteran.
I think kthis is a BIT over the top....
> untrained militia would shoot up his ammo quicker than that grizzled
very much as in RL.
> At 4:37 PM -0700 7/11/99, Don Greenfield wrote:
As the guy who gets called after that, I can only second this recommendation..
All you Windows users out there, partition your drives! Or at least back up
your Windows directory... All you Mac users got usable modem drivers on the
System CD...
We don't want to lose anyone else!
> Jerry wrote:
Probably, but I wouldn't actually go that far in the recordkeeping. Just set a
number of fire actions per weapon (or even weapon type) and stick to that.
There are already penalties for quality of troops, no sense putting them in
twice.
> I think kthis is a BIT over the top....
Maybe, but no more than the optional ammo rule that already exists in
SG2 for heavy weapons. If I was controlling 5-10 figures I wouldn't
mind keeping track of ammo that way. Still, I'll concede that it should
probably go into the optional rules section.
Tom
> In a message dated 7/12/99 10:36:29 AM EST, tpope@cs.cmu.edu writes:
<<
Maybe, but no more than the optional ammo rule that already exists in
SG2 for heavy weapons. If I was controlling 5-10 figures I wouldn't
mind keeping track of ammo that way. Still, I'll concede that it should
probably go into the optional rules section.
> [quoted text omitted]
Why not put a couple wire posts on the figure stand and use beads in two
colors? No chits littered about the table looking for a figure to apply to and
you can remove beads when you move the figure or resolve fire.
> On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 ScottSaylo@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 7/12/99 10:36:29 AM EST, tpope@cs.cmu.edu writes:
simpler yet, stick some little blobs of blu-tak to the base.
tom
Nice idea... the blu-tack. that stuff can be used for anything...
heck, it'll entertain kids for the longest time... (now cleaning it out of
hair might prove challenging, but you face that as it comes, right?):o)
BTW, you ever gonna reply to that last email of ideas I sent you, Tom? I know,
I know, we're all busy, but if I don't pester you, you'll forget, just like I
would.:o)
God bless,
- Buddy
---------------------------------------------
Get paid for surfing the Web! (I'm dead serious!) www.alladvantage.com
Referral #: BXL-474
---------------------------------------------
[quoted original message omitted]
> Thomas Pope wrote:
This echoes my thoughts on the subject; most of the time reloading (at least
changing mags in rifles etc.) should automatic, the kind of thing trained
troops can do on the fly, probably while doing other things like moving. If a
figure rolls badly (maybe a double 1 when firing), then he's
run out of ammo without realising it - wasn't checking his digital ammo
readout while shooting - and suddenly the gun goes "click" instead of
"bang" - now he has to take an action fumbling around for the new mag
that he SHOULD have had ready....
> How detailed are we shooting for with this game? In an earlier post I
A core system that is as fast and simple as we can make it, plus as many
bolt-on extras as people want (like in FT) that they can pick and choose
from.
Jon (GZG)
> God bless,
ammo
> over the their basic load.
> At 06:32 PM 7/12/99 +0100, GZG wrote:
> This echoes my thoughts on the subject; most of the time reloading (at
Yes this I like, Jon. It keeps things simple, has minimal record keeping and
means there are fewer chits littering the table (don't get me wrong, I don't
mind the chits, just that having too many of them on the table makes it look
crowded and confusing). I agree that for trained troops it should be an
automatic reflex but every now and then, they may get too wrapped up in
fighting and forget what's left in the magazine.
> Kelvin wrote:
> ============================================
Don't be silly, these people are professionals, if they wanted to kill you,
they would have done so already. The are just trying to make you paranoid.
Bye for now,
> Why not put a couple wire posts on the figure stand and use beads in
This sounds a bit much. Yes, it's not counters, but it begins to detract from
the essential simpolicity of the system.
> At 06:32 PM 7/12/99 +0100, GZG wrote:
Sorry to add a "me too," but I agree that simple is better. The best thing
about the system is that it's simple without being simplistic.
> Sean Bayan Schoonmaker wrote:
I can agree with this and it will only add one chit to the mix. On a 'botch'
attack roll, (either a double 1 or a 1 on the quality die), the character has
emptied a magazine and must use an action to reload the weapon. An 'Empty' or
'Reloading' chit can be placed next to the character to indicate that he or
she must use a Reload action before resuming fire.
Therefore, a veteran trooper will be automatically reloading while in combat
as a second nature. The green trooper may use too much firepower and will have
to pause to reload.
> Sean Bayan Schoonmaker wrote:
This is almost exactly what I had in mind. The same "reload needed" chit
can be used for those one-shot weapons such as rocket launchers which
must ALWAYS have a reload action spent before they can be fired again.
Removing the reload chit could be automatic at the cost of 1 action, or it
could require a reaction roll to avaoid fumbling it while under
pressure.....
I don't mind using small piles of ammo chits for a VERY FEW weapons such
as multi-tube Missile launchers (and maybe flamethrowers, with just a
few "bursts"), as we do in SGII, but these will represent all the ammo that is
available in the game unless someone brings the gunner another lot.
Using the counters rather than written off-table records is one of the
> I don't mind using small piles of ammo chits for a VERY FEW weapons
As a Space Hulk (original) player, I certainly approve of flame thrower
ammunition counters. Flamers were down right tense to use in Space Hulk; only
six shots usually, huge area of effect, devastating if used correctly, but the
fickle hand of fate might spare just one of the targets and you'd be dead if
unsupported.
Quite frankly, high explosives with huge area of effect will be overkill in
most of my FMA skirmish games, but flamethrowers, while rare, will feel
perfectly in scale. I find them so out of scale as to be ineffective in SG2.