[FMA] Shotgun spread, was Re: [OFFICIAL] FMA playtest version

In message <Pine.SGI.3.95.990713122853.12443A-100000@chass.utoronto.ca>,
Kennet
> h Winland writes:

I would agree...what if you did something like ignore light cover for shotgun
targets, shift hard cover to light, and test for suppression if you're within
1" of target base at short range, or 2" at medium or long?

> In message

I also think spread effect is goofy. Kind of reminds me of the "knock back"
effect some games model for shotguns.

> Andy Cowell wrote:

Sounds better to me, but probably not worth as many points.

> >> I wouldn't bother to model "spread effect" for shotguns, as that

    I didn't attribute the three posts, since it didn't auto-copy well.
. .

Anyway, to the first gentleman' comment, FMA isn't just about combat shotguns,
the mention of gang members and all brings up what kind of weapons
they will be using and a sawed-off shotgun is not altogether uncommon in
terms of such things and MUCH more common in reality than any sort of
automatic weapons in a gang members hands. If an individual with a
sawed-off double barrel shotgun shoots at two men exiting a doorway with
buckshot rounds, there is a great chance that they will both be hit. This
suggest that there does need to be some spread effect for some weapons (not
just shotguns) to emulate this level of detail, (sure in warfare, guys don't
stand shoulder to shoulder. But gunfights in an urban environment are much
more crowed and a "streetsweeper" is wonderful in such environments. FMA's
scope of operations seems to warrant at least optional rules for such an
event.

    The second rule isn't bad and my initial idea of 1 target/any within
2"/any within 4" should certainly be much closer to 1 target (or within
base-to- base or 1/2"?)/any within 1"/ any within 2" for wide spread and
perhaps no multiple targets except at long range for buckshot from single
barrel shotguns or something similar (the names don't matter just effect and
point value), i.e.. . . 1target/1 target/ any within 1". (In actuality I
don't care if it is a hyper velocity sliver gun with a 100 round per second
rate of fire, some ability to spread damage from one attack should be there.)
Shotguns do raise an interesting point regarding weapons that can have
multiple weapon profiles for the same weapon as the profile for a slug is very
different than the one for buckshot or lighter loads. I mainly mean from a
cost perspective since generally it is either effect A or effect B
that can be chosen, not both at once (except for multi-barrel weapons).

    Ass for the third comment, I agree that knock-back is a silly
hollywoodism, but spread fire is a reality (albeit not necessarily to the
extent as shown in film).

    Now I certainly don't want a bunch of hyper-detailed, yet impossible
to play rules, but I think that a system that is capable of dealing with a
cops versus gangers setting (as mentioned in the playtest) should have some
rules for weaponry and effects that are likely in that environment. This
includes things like ammunition as being discussed in other threads,
after-all, gangers and police officers don't go into fights with the
same sort of ammunition supplies or reliable weaponry (at least on the gangers
side) as line infantry, nor anywhere near the same weapons (though this varies
by setting and locale). I want simple rules that play well and I
think that close/medium/long range multiple targets is a simple rule,
whether it plays well, is not 100% certain, since I haven't tried it yet (at
least not w/FMA, YET!).

Hoping that I made some sort of sense...

> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Voivode Shrike (a.k.a. Ryan) wrote:

I like the idea of a close spread on shot from a shotgun - discourages
the enemy from bunching up too close.

> Ass for the third comment, I agree that knock-back is a silly

Agreed, although a solid slug is likely to cause knock-down, in which
case the suppression rule already covers that.

Howdy!

> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Andy Cowell wrote:

> I would agree...what if you did something like ignore light cover for

Something along those lines may be right. Hard cover should still be very
effective against shotguns, but light cover perhaps should be reduced (against
combat loads, of course).

        Ken

Howdy!

> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Jerry wrote:

> I also think spread effect is goofy. Kind of reminds me of the "knock

        Well, it *is* very Hollywood/Hong Kong.... which sadly serves as
a model of reality for far too many gamers. Unless, of course, you are playing
Feng Shui!:)

        Ken

Howdy!

> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Voivode Shrike (a.k.a. Ryan) wrote:

> Anyway, to the first gentleman' comment, FMA isn't just about
This
> suggest that there does need to be some spread effect for some weapons
FMA's
> scope of operations seems to warrant at least optional rules for such

        I think that you would be VERY surprised how little a sawed-off
shotgun spreads. Most decrease barrel length for concealability.

Sawing a barrel off or changing the choke will enhance the spread, but you are
not going to be able to engage multiple targets at range.

> Ass for the third comment, I agree that knock-back is a silly

"Spread fire" with respects to supressing or engaging fire from a fully
automatic weapons> Or "spread fire" from shotguns?

        Ken

[quoted original message omitted]

In a message dated 7/14/99 9:28:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
> voivode@voyager.net writes:

<<
I'll tell you what, I will be travelling home this weekend and I will get out
my brothers double barrel 12 Gauge and my single barrel pump 12 gauge and I
will shoot up some sheets of plywood with various loads at various ranges this
weekend and tell you what happens. That way we can see what its effect really
is. I will measure them for everyone's benefit. However I will not be able to
test the sawed off properties as my family and
 I are law-abiding citizens and sawed-offs are illegal in the U.S. (well
at least under a certain length anyway, 32" or so I think, I may be wrong,
I've never wanted to ruin one of my guns that way).
> [quoted text omitted]

I believe the legal limit for barrel length is 18". No one has mentioned the
use of shot spreaders, here. So a quick note: Shot spreaders are meant to
funnel the shot in a horizontal line so that it covers a wider area but shot
does not go inordinately higher or lower. The rationale is if you spread it
from side to side it might hit more than one target but shot that hits the
ground or flies over the target's head is of no practical use.

Howdy!

> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Voivode Shrike (a.k.a. Ryan) wrote:

> I'll tell you what, I will be travelling home this weekend and I

Keen, although spread patterns have been published and are available for a
wide variety of chokes and shot. But first hand testing is always fun....:)

> However I will not be able to test the sawed off properties as my
(well at
> least under a certain length anyway, 32" or so I think, I may be

Ruin a gun is right...

> I am basing my ideas on what I have seen hunting, I have seen a

I have never been hunting with a shotgun. My experience is from modeling
ballistics and wound patterning for Medical Examiner's offices in Rhode Island
and Florida.

> Hopefully not too graphic for anyone,

	:)

        Ken