I'm a new player to Full Thrust playing in a local group (in Atlanta). In the
few games I've played so far (knock down drag outs with lots of ships)
I've been struck by two things -- 1) Escort sized
ships seem to be nothing but targets in the battle, and 2) Escorts don't seem
to have a real role on the board other than to make the setup look pretty and
possibly to absorb damage.
This, combined with the difficulty defending against salvo missiles and
fighters led me to wonder if it was possible to create an escort sized vessel
with the ability to actually protect the fleet from fighters and missiles and
maybe stay alive themselves (and have a role on the battlefield).
The obvious first choice of having lots of PDS and ADEF is a little
unsatisfactory because it's not possible to fire on the fighters until they
attack.
I was considering something that I'm certain has been done (maybe to death) on
this list and I wanted to get some input on how smart or dumb it would be.
My idea is a Destroyer/Carrier with good hull,
armor, shield 2, ADFC, lots of PDS's and 1 fighter squadron of interceptors.
There would be a cruiser version with 2 squadrons. The idea is that the hull,
armor, and shields would make them difficult to
destroy from a distance. The PDS/ADFC would help
when the attack came, and the interceptor squadrons would cut down on the
number of fighters reaching the SDN's and Carriers. Also, if the escort was
destroyed, the fighter squadron would remain.
Ok, now is this a smart or a not so smart idea? What are the countermeasures?
Would I be better off with regular fighters so that they could take an
offensive role if the enemy didn't have fighters or missiles? Is there a
better idea? Thanks and I'm sorry if this has been asked and answered.
Probably the easiest defence against fighters is other fighters, so small
squadrons based of ships could work. I personally have never tried this
tactic, nor have I had it used against me, but there is no reason why not.
My basic response is that every ship has an ADFC and most ships bigger than a
cruiser get at least 4 PDF. Keep your ships in tight, and the PDS should be
able to deal with any reasonable amount of fighters.
If you have enough points, a lighter carrier would always be good thing to
carry along. This is very true if you ever fight Phalons as their
area-effect weapons are best dealt with either by KV Scatterguns or
fighter groups
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:54:47 -0800 (PST) David Griffin
> <carbon_dragon@yahoo.com> writes:
I like this. When I had only FT2 (until yesterday - got FB1) I was
frustrated by this ability being limited to fighters only being on
Capital ships. Now I am looking at a similar role for CVVLE (CV-Very
Light Escort) ships almost like Catapult ships on the WW2 arctic convoys...
only recoverable.
I find there is a real crying need for escorts having a reason to exist.
I think the escort versus escort aspect of the game is virtually ignored
in play/discussions from my limited experience. Escort versus escort
should be a prime reason escorts exist...
Hello Everyone: There are a couple of options that we (the local people in
Silicaon Valley) use to take care of the escorts going poof so soon. 1) Fight
battles with only one or two large ships and more
cruisers/escorts.
This is a better representation of what real battles are all about. One of the
longest running games I ever had was two convoys (one humand one Kra'Vak)
meeting eah other. The largest ships was a destroyer. Also when a destroyer
gets behind a larger ship it can start to cause some damage the large one can
not (unless it does not use it engines to manuever). 2) Firing rules. We have
a rule that movement is done slowest thrust to fastest thurst. Firing is done
fastest to slowest. This almost assures that the escorts will get to fire
before the big guys. 3) Take a fleet of all escorts and go against another
normal fleet. I took out one balanced fleet with a fleet of very fast torpedo
destroyers. Of course I lost a lot but ended up winning in the end. Strange
but three battleships got torn to pieces by 20 destroyers. 4) Realize that
escorts have a higher rate of desruction that capitals (this is true in real
life history).
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:54:47 -0800 (PST) David Griffin
> <carbon_dragon@yahoo.com> writes:
<snip>
> This, combined with the difficulty defending against
The previously stated 'best' defense against fighters is close formation and
multiple PDS's (with ADFC where possible) but spacing seems to help more
versus the missiles (aided by the PDS's above) in my one experience. The
fighters were not really that much of a factor in play by the time the
scenario ended. The theory I have heard is that 'avoiding' missiles by
unpredictable moves is best but that's not always possible or desirable...
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:54:47 -0800 (PST) David Griffin
> <carbon_dragon@yahoo.com> writes:
> My idea is a Destroyer/Carrier with good hull,
Strictly defense? Or dual purpose?
I don't have access to the fighter rules from MT but based on what little I
have seen one time at a summary sheet during a game...
1 squadron - specialist craft with either interceptors or Torpedo
fighters? Depends on who you most likely foe's force might be using...
2 squadrons - maybe 1 interceptor and one type suitable for interception
and attacking ships? Or an interceptor and torpedo force if you think you can
get the latter past his fighters?
3 squadrons - this I like (but it begins to get past escort size vessels
a long time (mass) ago - maybe cruiser sized?) because you can mix and
match within a three ship flotilla for covering all possibilities.
4 squadrons - why not just make a CVE/CVL (or my CV(VLE) design I am
working on)?
This need really would be best met by a campaign setting.
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:54:47 -0800 (PST) David Griffin
> <carbon_dragon@yahoo.com> writes:
True, with 'total intelligence' from sensors (this only seems logical versus
Human or frequently fought Aliens) any escort with a weapon likely
to really hurt a capital ship gets lots of missiles/beams in lieu of
long range shots at opposing capital ships...
> 2) Firing rules. We have a rule that movement is done slowest
This is an interesting idea...
You may already be doing it this way, but it would be interesting to see how
it worked if one tries the following:
In the combat phase, ships alternate fire as normal within its thrust group.
In other words, all MD8 ships alternate fire, then all MD6, etc.
Opinions?
> I'm a new player to Full Thrust playing in a local
Are your escorts leading your fleet into battle? This is a common tactic I
have seen that just results in their destruction. I have seen much better
results by leading with your capitals and cruisers with your escorts hanging
back. Then with their high thrust, they can move where needed to reinforce a
wing, make a deadly strike against major target, or to finish off damaged
ships.
> This, combined with the difficulty defending against
Actually a common use of very small ships is the 'Banzi Jammer', basically
surround your main ships with these disposeable ships to soak off salvo
missile fire. Area defence is another use since the escorts can be where
needed instead of the PDS locked on a single hull.
You also mention missile boats in a later post, escorts again are the perfect
choice to defend against these ships so they don't destract your main line
ships.
Schoon: That is how we work it. This makes sure the escorts get at least a
couple of shoots before dissappearing.
John W. Fox
> This is an interesting idea...
From: David Griffin carbon_dragon@yahoo.com
> I'm a new player to Full Thrust playing in a local group (in Atlanta).
In the few games I've played so far (knock down drag outs with lots of ships)
I've been struck by two things -- 1) Escort sized ships seem to be
nothing but targets in the battle, and 2) Escorts don't seem to have a real
role on the board other than to make the setup look pretty and possibly to
absorb damage.
Hi David. Big ships will usually beat an equal points value of small ships,
unless the player with the small ships can outmaneuver the
opponent. However, you may want to try taking strike boats--you'll
still have to be careful with them because they go *pop* quite easily, but you
can provide more targets than he has FCS, which means if you close on him
quickly some shots will get through.
Islamic Federation ash Shaulah strike boat (based on Schoon's "Requin" design)
NPV 30 (+10% for being non-FTL capable = 33)
TMF 8 1Hull MD6 1FCS Mass4 weapons package = 2 needles or 4 submunitions or 1
SMR or other variants. The Heavy Needle Beam (which Noam or someone will send
you, it was a Weapon of the Week a couple of weeks ago) might be a good choice
here.
There's also a Mass 12 "strike corvette" version which is MainDrive 9, NPV is
42 if I recall correctly.
For a 1000 point battle, try about 20 of these plus a battlecruiser vs his big
ships.
[quoted original message omitted]
> On 27-Mar-01 at 13:57, Bif Smith (bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk) wrote:
> If you want to know about light carrier designs (escort sized), look
I have a couple lighter carrier designs up on my page. The one based around a
cruisers weaponry is hated by my opponents in campaigns. The lightest one is
too high of a priority because it is a carrier and too small to handle it. In
a campaign it is better to not be attrited.:)
> The obvious first choice of having lots of PDS and
Yes, but you do fire on the fighters BEFORE they attack, this includes
Area-Defense Firecon systems as well.
Fighters do not fire until all defensive fire is complete. So, keep your ADFC
equipped ships always within 6mu of the ships they're protecting, and they'll
get to shoot at the fighters and missiles before they get to attack.
> I find there is a real crying need for escorts having a reason to
I think there was a very good discussion about it in "tin Cans vs.
Dreadnoughts" though sadly that degenerated into a discussion of the merits of
various modern weapons and their effects on the Kirov.....
However, I think that escorts have a very important role in the game, though
admittedly, my gaming is limited right now to mostly Trek, since that's all
anybody around here wants to play...go figure.
Anyways, I tend to see FT fighters, and Needle Beam armed escorts filling the
same role that torpedo destroyers filled in WWI. Both can do some serious hurt
to your ships of the line. To protect those ships of the line, you need a
bunch of fast little ships to deal with the fast little ships threatening you.
Sure, you could put all kinds of PDS systems on your battleships, but if you
do that, then you have less room for your really big guns, and you want lots
of those!
A swarm of needle beam armed corvettes can be death to a battleship that has
only three firecons. You can waste your BB's firepower on them, or you can use
the BB against his big ship, and use your frigates to swat those corvettes!
They same idea applies to fighters....
And of course, if all your opponent brings to battle is big ships, then go
ahead and put in a swarm of those needle armed corvettes yourself. They may
die easily, but imagine the look on your opponents face when his big bad
battleship is out of the fight because his three firecons were destroyed!
Next time he'll bring some little brothers to the fight as well!
> stranger wrote:
I lik to play that way. I have a fleet carrier and a swarm of neddle
destroyers and then my capital ships. I target the largest ships on the other
side with the needle beams and work my way down.
> --- John Fox <jfox@verity.com> wrote:
...
> 1) Fight battles with only one or two large ships
Since when? Obviously we don't know what's normal in this particular world
without a scenario book. In WWI it wasn't normal for escorts to particpate in
the main battle line. In modern time, escorts are never meant to come within
200 miles of enemy ships. In what way is this historically accurate?
When technology changes, somebody, presumably the occasional brilliant leader,
comes up with tactics they think match the situation. When wars happen we find
out if it really works. So what really works here?
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:07:20 -0800 (PST) David Griffin
> <carbon_dragon@yahoo.com> writes:
<snip>
> When technology changes, somebody,
Blowing up more of 'their' ships then they do of 'yours' (or heaven
forbid, achieving your victory conditions). Any way you can. <grin>
Seriously, we are indirectly back to how you model Space Combat. FT is
basically naval (WW1 or WW2 - take you pick) warfare in space. And
while I prefer an "Air Force" oriented model the reality of the more common
gaming groups seems to be "Task Forces in Space."
Also, seriously, judicious scenario victory conditions (or even a
campaign setting) can cause the 'free-for-all shoot-em-ups' to be
Pyrrhic
(spelling?) at best. I believe that *if* we get into warfare in a FT
like setting (which I highly doubt for reasons that are /very/ off
topic) I would expect that warfare would *truly* 3D in tactics, scope, and
strategy. Very much more like SPI's old SF board games (with or
without
the psi-PSB - a PSB for a PSB!) then FT. But I prefer to play the
latter (sold off the 3 set of the former.)
> --- Bif Smith <bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> If you want to know about light carrier designs
Alesia Light Carrier Displacement: 4400 tonnes (Mass factor 44) Hull Type:
Average (Hull Integrity 13) Crew: 8 officer, 34 ratings (Crew Factor 3)
Armament: 1xClass 1 Batteries Sensors: Standard sensors, 1xFire Control
Defenses: 1xPDS, Armor rating 2 Drive Systems: Main Drive rating 6, FTL Drive
Other: 1xHanger with 6 fighters. Procurement cost: 1450 Million Noumisma Ships
in Class (2183): 19 Usual loadout is 1xstandard fighter group
These are used in groups of 2-3, escorted by approx
4-8 other escorts. My usual pattern for destroyer
squadrons has 1-3 Heavy Destroyers (In NRE parlance,
Destroyer Leaders) as flagship and heavy force. These are to surprise an
opponent who's not expecting a destroyer force to spew fighters. Used mostly
for guarding fleet train and attacking enemy fleet train.
Here is my design for a OUDF escort cruiser
> mas 61
> At 02:21 28/03/01 +1000, you wrote:
Or you can find mine at
> --- stranger <stranger@cvn.net> wrote:
Well before, like when they fly over my other ships. The rules as they lie are
like the carrier defense ships in a modern CVN group waiting till the migs are
diving on the carrier before opening fire. You'd think that anytime a fighter
squadron ends up within 6" on an ADFC ship, it could fire. I guess there must
be a reason why not.
> Fighters do not fire until all defensive fire is
I do that now.
> David Reeves wrote:
hmm.. that might not be a bad idea. Though I'd limit it to ships with ADFC can
shoot like that. Same way only and Aegis cruiser can link it's defensive fire
together.
> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:54:47 -0800 (PST)
[snip]
we use the house rule that PDS and ADFC may fire at any fighters within
range -- not just ones that fire on the escort. that way, large capital
ships can be screened from pesky fighters and missles -- the true escort
mission. so if an enemy wants a shot at your big ship, they gotta
neutralize/cripple/destroy enough escorts to do it. it seemed like
common sense to us anyway....
> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:48:37 -0800
we also do movement from slowest thrust to fastest. however, fire order is by
"initiative cards" we pay for ship crew quality with higher quality getting
more initiative cards. each turn, we shuffle and draw
one-at-a-time. that determines fire order. if playing with our fleet
admiral rules, the admiral may use one of his precious actions to bump up a
ship's fire order regardless of card draw. of course, the other admiral may
superceed that too until no one has admiral orders left.
it goes pretty fast when you get use to it. therefore, fire order is not
slaved to ship speed, but crew quality.
On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:58:53 -0500 "David Reeves"
[snip]
> we use the house rule that PDS and ADFC may fire at any fighters
Would this come under the rule that says that (in FT/2nd) that an area
defense (ADAF) can fire on fighters attacking any ship within 6" of the ADAF
equipped ship, even if the fighters are more then 6" from the ADAF equipped
ship itself?
Thus any ADFC equipped ships could screen other ships (capital, other
cruisers, transports, merchants) in a formation where the ships being screened
are within 6" of the ADFC equipped ship?
> > > 2) Firing rules. We have a rule that movement is done slowest
Brian Bell's Operation Avalanche at GZG-ECC had a rule that you could
fire 3 escorts or 2 cruisers or 1 capital. I think I'd change that to
4 escorts (or 1 cruiser + 2 escorts). Figure you're firing off
In my fairly limited experience with larger fleets, my escorts played an
important role as I use ADFCs and PDSs to shield the capital ships from
missiles and fighters. This proved useful as one opponent played a fleet with
primarily SMLs (luckily with inadequate magazines) and the escorts literally
saved my skin, through the ADFCs or by being closer to the missiles and
drawing them away from the more 'important' ships. I also occasionally use
them as missile or torpedo boats, with a few destroyers and frigates to fend
off the opponents small ships, and draw fire when the opponent realises how
dangerous they can be.
As for firing sequence comments earlier in the week, my friends and I
occasionally use simultaneous damage resolution at the end of the firing
phase, thus all ships get their turn, and in some ways it is more realistic in
that ships don't sit and take turns at firing, they tend to do it all at once
(this all depends on what aspect you are trying to simulate, eg how fast
responses are, etc). We generally declare firing orders at the start of firing
phase, recording them in larger battles where necessary, then alternate who
fires and declares first each turn.
Ultimately, the usefulness of escort vessels is determined by what you do with
them and wether you make the most of them. I have to agree with whoever
commented on the common tactic of leading them into the battle. They will tend
to get in range first, and so ripped to shreds first. Give the opponent
something bigger to hit first, that can take it, then bring the escorts up to
take their part ( I led them first in one battle and learnt my lesson then).
Well, there's my 2 peneth worth,
On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:54:43 +1000 "Andrew Ayres"
> <ftshipcreator@bigpond.com> writes:
<snip>
I have heard about /seen situations where the players dice off all
ships within range for each salvo. Plus it allows a PSB that says the inherent
ECM/ECCM of the individual ships were more/less effective for that salvo
and avoids the which is closer measurements when two+ ships are
minimally farther apart. Also avoids appeals that a larger but minimally
farther ship is 'the real target/more likely to be detected/etc.' (
i.e.,
the time killing techno-argument.)
> Ultimately, the usefulness of escort vessels is determined by what you
A friend of mine who played SFB for many years (but is turned off by FT
-
it's a genre thing) said his best successes, such as they were, involved
screening his smaller ships ("Popcorn ships" - hit them and they pop)
for single short but decisive strikes with his big ships. He commented, "Not
al all 'historical' and illogical from a traditional naval/air war game
view but it worked better then "...move small ships, move large ships, watch
small ships die to his large ships, be out numbered, die horribly..." Never
did SFB but it reinforces what you said worked for you in FT.
Of course he is far and away more an RPG player (or card player) then a
war game player - "Can't afford another hobby, would lose the
miniatures/board games in Sue's junk, dog would eat the rules..."
and one centavo is your change <grin>
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious (American Mongrel)
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines! (Die, Ralnai, Die!)
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar Conflicts
and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
> Well, there's my 2 peneth worth,