The talk of ambush reinforces the point that most fleet engagements will be
around a specific objective (planets, space stations, jump points, convoys).
And it provides insight on how the different forces would use their fleets.
Consider an engagement between the NSL and FSE fleets.
If FSE is the attacker, the NSL fleet would have to fight close to the FSE
objective. Otherwise the FSE fleet (MD 6 and 4) would have the maneuverability
to fly around the NSL fleet (MD 4 and 2) to strike the objective.
Likewise if the NSL is the attacker, to engage the FSE fleet, they would have
to threaten a valuable FSE resource (less mobile than the NSL fleet) or the
FSE would avoid the NSL fleet.
Also, NSL ships have to be built tougher as they do not have the speed to flee
an engagement. FSE fleets can choose to stand and fight, make running attacks,
or disengage from battle at their discretion.
Because of the inability to make an escape, the NSL would probably be more
prone to allow their ships to be reduced to scrap than the FSE who would value
retreating to fight another day. With the difference in hull strength, it
might make a very big difference in the play (for example if a FSE ship
withdraws when the 3rd damage row starts to be checked off while the NSL waits
until the 4th row).
Game play is so different when campaign issues are taken into consideration.
I'm probably stateing the blindingly obvious, but there it is.
> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Bell, Brian K wrote:
> Because of the inability to make an escape, the NSL would probably be
Granted. However, if the FSE player is fleeing, he will undoubtedly have
more damage and probably be down on his thrust available for the retreat. One
other issue is that the NSL Battlecruisers are just as fast as the heavy
assets the FSE has (with the exception of the Bonaparte Class). But the
Richtofen has almost as much damage capacity as the Bonaparte. Add to that the
use by the FSE of more missile based weapons, I can see them
preferring to dis-engage sooner. Else they will find a significant
problem. To stay in line and slug it out.
One thing I found is that in an point blank slug match 2 NAC BDNs (an Avalon
and a Excalibur) are just barely the Equal of a Von Tegethoff. A Brace of
Torpedo Bombers from a NAC fleet carrier can help, but the slug
match can go real bad.
[admittedly the NAC and NSL are allied, we have just had a number of
Fleet Maneuvers to keep our crews trained. Our local Frogs^h^h^hFSE players
haven't the courage to come out and play]
> Ryan M Gill wrote:
> One other issue is that the NSL Battlecruisers are just as fast as
> But the Richtofen has almost as much damage capacity as the
I'm not entirely sure I'd call 39 "almost as much" as 48 + level-1
screens (not when the NSL main armament is beams, anyway)... but OTOH
the Richthofen has more mass devoted to weapons than the Bonaparte :-/
Regards,
> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> I'm not entirely sure I'd call 39 "almost as much" as 48 + level-1
Well, they are fairly close damage wise. But as you say, the Richtofen can
deal far more damage per turn (at a steady rate with out running out
of ammo) than the Bonaparte. Those damage slots it has more of would get
eaten away pretty quick.
Again though, if the Bonaparte is fleeing the last thing it wants is a
Richtofen chasing it down. It won't do well in a slug match. If anything, I
respect the NSL ships in point blank range slug matches.
> > One other issue is that the NSL Battlecruisers are just as fast as
Oops, sorry. The Richthofen only has 37 hull + armour, not 39 :-/
> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> Oops, sorry. The Richthofen only has 37 hull + armour, not 39 :-/
Yeah with the armour its 14 damage points before the BvR makes a check for
systems. 12 for the Bonaparte. With 4 Class 3s in the front arn and only 1
class 3 for the Bonaparte, she had better hope the magazine is still full.
NSL ships don't flee they will turn and fight. No matter what. If the FSE is
fleeing and can't get away from a persuing NSL Task force, cest la
vie...
> On 17-Nov-99 at 14:36, Ryan M Gill (monty@arcadia.turner.com) wrote:
> for systems. 12 for the Bonaparte. With 4 Class 3s in the front arn
Salvo Missiles are wonderful anti-pursuit weapons. By pursuing a ship
severly limits its choice of where to be. Of course, this assumes you have
some missiles left.
> Ryan M Gill wrote:
> > Oops, sorry. The Richthofen only has 37 hull + armour, not 39 :-/
...which the shields transform to on average 15 for the Bonaparte. Given
average die rolls for everything but the Bonaparte DCPs (who all fail
miserably for simplicity <g>) the Bonaparte takes just above 50% more beam
damage to destroy than the Richthofen; if the DCPs are counted in as well it
creeps closer to 60% more.
(The difference to the second threshold is IME more important than the
first one, too - after the first check you still have most of your DCPs
left to fix things up, and barring abysmal luck you won't have lost too much.
The RvB reaches its 2nd threshold after 22 points, the Bonaparte
after 24 non-beam or on average 30 beam damage points.)
The Bonaparte is still in trouble if both its fighters and its missiles
are gone, of course - unless she can run, which (since she is a
thrust-6 ship) she usually can <g>
> On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> > Yeah with the armour its 14 damage points before the BvR makes a
All of what you said was true, however we've become sidetracked. The original
crux of my argument was that the Bonaparte was the only ship capable of
running away from the BvR's. Specifically when the Froggies were trying to
disengage.
An even more horrible thing for them to have happen would be to disengage from
some NSL heavies after dealing out Salvo Missles and run smack dab into a
bunch of NAC mediums and heavies...talk about a rock and a hard
place...
> On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Roger Books wrote:
> Salvo Missiles are wonderful anti-pursuit weapons. By pursuing a ship
Yes they are. Are there any FSE ships with a salvo missle launcher aimed
backwards like the modern day russian DD (Kashin is it, I forget) with its
weapons fit configured for "parting" shots? It was basically a unit meant to
shadow USN CVBGs and when WWIII started, update Russian Intel on the position,
turn tail and run.
***
> Salvo Missiles are wonderful anti-pursuit weapons.
***
***
Yes they are. Are there any FSE ships with a salvo missle launcher aimed
backwards like the modern day russian DD (Kashin is it, I forget) with its
weapons fit configured for "parting" shots?
***
Bozhe'! If there were, I'd be demanding they'd not be able to thrust and fire
that way. Not that they can't walk away from any fleet *I've* got!
By the way, why only FSE? They are the main, but not only users of SM's. For
covering rear, I'd find them much more likely on the pigs I've got in my NSL
fleet.
However, given most weopens are configured for meeting engagements, and SM
systems are so expensive, the ship would be dead weight at the start of the
battle, and only good for cover fire. Perhaps a staggered fleet with those
towards the rear acting reserve, options being rush up to exploit weakness,
hang back to cover 'leakers', or laying SM's while the fore ships are making
their turns for heading home?
Seriously, I've always assumed that the real magic of SM's is they make sure
your opponent is not going where you don't want him/her, or at least,
paying dearly if they are.
The_Beast
> On 18-Nov-99 at 09:14, devans@uneb.edu (devans@uneb.edu) wrote:
You don't have to fire aft for a parting shots. Most of my designs
have the SM's configure to fire AP-FP-F, not that it matters for
chases. The last time I used it this way I dropped it directly on my CA, that
annoying destroyer trying to keep in my blind spot landed right on it and went
boom.:) They don't follow that close any more.
> > Salvo Missiles are wonderful anti-pursuit weapons.
with its
> weapons fit configured for "parting" shots?
Browsing this thread just gave me the idea of a class variant which would
have, say, one SMR facing towards the rear (would need to put on a moderately
large or larger ship for space/Mass considerations). Allow the fleets to
engage (most battles I've fought - most, not all - have been fleets
passing
at/into/through each other), then as you pass through the other fleet,
leave a parting package for them to deal with until you (and they) can get
turned around.
Yeah, it does mean that amount of Mass is not available for the initial
engagement. But I like the idea of the surprise... :-}
Mk