Don,
well you certainly did help - the Digital Library is going to keep me
occupied for a while - lol! Very interesting stuff!!
Well, on to the testgame result:
We used a combination of the original SG rules, the Sg2->ww2 conversion
rules and my own writings. Confusing, yes, but is was as much a rules
discussion game as anything else.
I put a reduced German infantry platoon without any artillery support
whatsoever in a small forest deep in russian territory. 1 10 man squad with
beltfed MG34, 2 7 man squads, one with a beltfed mg34 and one with drumfed
magasine..
The poor bastards went to the wrong forest and the one radio call they managed
to get through to company hq resulted in an order to sit tight and wait for
their friends to show up.
Alas! A russian platoon, just a bit larger than the german but only with
mag. fed lmg was ordered to clear them from the forest to make way for some
russian artillery on its way to the area.
My plan was to set up the three squads in position in the forest and then
detach the mg's if need be, but somehow I forgot my plan and the mg's stayed
with their squads. We were in a defensive position and I didn't need all the
actions for moving around. We used the SG2-WW2 conversion rule with d4
for
amor and 1fp/d10 for rifles, fp d6/d8(mag/belt)-d8/d10 for lmgs. The
amor value of a d4 makes firing a bit more lethal, but not too destructive
(well
not until the russian platoon hq called their two mortar firemissions -
THAT
HURT!).
The russians had a hard time getting near my germans, the mg's and rifles
putting a lot of suppression on them all. It was first when the first mortar
shells began to land that he managed to break me. I had moved to squads close
to each other and the first round hit right on target (one beltfed
mg34), the deviation roll was made and the second round
hit................
ON TOP OF THE OTHER BELTFED MG34. Lucky russian strike... The 10 man squad was
reduced to 4 men and the 7 man squad was reduced to 3. Never have I seen
so bad amor rolls :-)
As time ran out we stopped the game, but with to full russian squads I fairly
judged the russians as winners!
Conclusion:
1) Fireteams wasn't used - no lessons learned there :-(
2) Mortars are devastating when you have no body amor at all.
3) Rifles/mgs are equally deadly due to the lack of amor.
What comes next: 1) We will define what nations actually separated their mgs
from the squad from those who didn't 2) Artillery (primarily mortars) will
have to be defined by nations as well. 3) Radio communication will also be
defined both by nation and difficulty (it was a bit too easy to call down the
mortar fire) 4) General distinction between the nations and the way they
fought.
I think that was about it - but sadly no further input on the
fireteams...
---
Med venlig hilsen
> Claus Paludan wrote:
> Conclusion:
I would have thought that there's little practical difference between a German
8cm, British 3", US 81mm or Russian 82mm mortar in terms of game
effect - except in range, which will always be long enough to cover the
whole table anyway. Burst area and impact would be the same.
> 3) Radio communication will also be defined both by nation and
The Russians shouldn't have been able to call mortar fire at all. If
available, I would think it would have to be pre-planned.
> 4) General distinction between the nations and the way they fought.
> Tony Francis writes:
> 2) Artillery (primarily mortars) will have to be defined by nations
Agreed - what I meant was that the amount of available mortars would be
nation specific (and scenario of course).
> 3) Radio communication will also be defined both by nation and
Well for this scenario they had it because we needed to test the rules -
wether or not they should have it historicly we still have to work on. We have
some historicans in our gaming club that has great knowledge of the
russian army so I think I'll check with them.
Artillery greater than mortars would have to be pre-planned AND
pre-bombarded. It wouldn't fit into the game to have a a battery of
150mm slamming on to the table...
---
With kind regards
> Claus Paludan wrote:
I'm with you now. If I could find my various WW2 army lists, handbooks
and ToEs I'd help - unfortunately they're all still boxed up somewhere
in my loft (18 months after we moved house...). Still, this could be a good
excuse to go up there this weekend and drag them all out.
> >> 3) Radio communication will also be defined both by nation and
We
> have some historicans in our gaming club that has great knowledge of
The main stumbling block would be the complete lack of radios - the
Russians just wouldn't have them at platoon level.
> Artillery greater than mortars would have to be pre-planned AND
Very true...
> Tony Francis writes:
Om my good - I'll be moving to our new house in a month - I sure hope
that
my books won't be boxed up for that long :-))
If you find som information I'd really appriciate it. Anything that will
bring us closer to the historical facts will help!
> >> 3) Radio communication will also be defined both by nation and
> The main stumbling block would be the complete lack of radios - the
Ahh yes - that is why we will be working on some sort of "runner"
concept -
they would of course make obvious sniper targets, but hey - it's a
dangerous world.
Anyway, we will probably end up with only US forces and maybe Brittish forces
having radios at platoon hq. All other communication at table level will have
to be made by runners or by CO's being in touch with the troops he
wants to do something. That will keep the CO's fit as well - LOL!
---
With kind regards
Quoting Claus Paludan <cpaludan@worldonline.dk>:
> Tony Francis writes:
Some of my stuff never got unpacked in the last house - and it's still
in the boxes in the new one. It hasn't seen daylight in 2 years now.
On the bright side since it's my house, and although I share it with other
people, that happens at my whim, so I get a wargames room. It's full of other
things at the moment, but it's VERY definitely a wargames room. It's got a
wargames table in it; it must be a games room.
> katie@fysh.org writes:
> On the bright side since it's my house, and although I share it with
Sigh, I won't get room for that, but at least my workspace for miniature
painting etc. gets off the "Ready for extinction" status. It has been
threatened for the last 2 years in our apartement. (2 kids, 2 adults, 2 rooms,
80cm2) LOL.
---
With kind regards
Tony Francis schrieb:
> Claus Paludan wrote:
Apart from runners (possibly on bicycles, motorcycles or horses), other means
of communication would have been field telephone lines (mostly for defensive
positions, of course), hand or flag signals and flares. A variety of flares of
different colours or types would be used to convey a standard set of messages,
like an alert call, the reaching of specific positions etc. I guess this could
include calling down fire
onto 1 or 2 pre-defined targets.
Greetings Karl Heinz
> A variety of flares of different colours or types would be used to
Flares have no nationality, you'd have to get both sides to write down their
predefined signals and compare them. Two reds and a green might mean "Peform
Fire Mission 2" to the Russians and "Lift fire we've taken the objective" for
the Germans.
> KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de writes:
> Apart from runners (possibly on bicycles, motorcycles or horses),
> A variety of flares of different colours or types would be used to
> specific positions etc. I guess this could include calling down fire
Good points!
I have somewhat of an idea emerging here, which will include some modifiers
to the communication roll - I'll get back when it's ready for test :-)
Ps : Karl - did you get what you wanted from our discussion board?
---
With kind regards
Christopher Downes-Ward schrieb:
> Flares have no nationality, you'd have to get both sides
Right, though you usually can see where they come from (more or less). And you
might want to dice for availability of the proper colour, or whether the
sequence shot off is correct, or whether the observer is colour blind.
It was a viable means of signalling, but it did have its problems, and some of
them should appear in the game to make life interesting for the
gamers :-)
Greetings Karl Heinz
> KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
Hmm, tricky problem - to the Germans, red means 'need reinforcement
now'. Makes the situation interesting when Uberleutnent Schwarzkopf decides he
needs some help and lets go the red smoke grenade... not realising that, to
the Russians, red means 'drop 203mm HE rounds here'.
Tony Francis schrieb:
> Hmm, tricky problem - to the Germans, red means 'need
The Russians would have to be pretty desperate to define such a signal. After
all, whoever throws that smoke grenade will get a good portion of the incoming
stuff.
But coloured smoke could be a signal from an airborne forward observer, for
example. Though more likely for American forces than Russians.
Greetings Karl Heinz
PS. That would be Oberleutnant (1st Lieutenant) Schwarzkopf, not
Ãberleutnant ;-)
After 11 moves in the past 18 years I follow the following rule:
If a box has been moved while still packed from a move more than 2 ago it gets
thrown out.
You can loot it for valuables* prior to tossing. <G>
Bob
*valuables- old wargames, figures, models rulesets
etc.
> --- katie@fysh.org wrote:
> Some of my stuff never got unpacked in the last
Quoting Robert Makowsky <rmakowsky@yahoo.com>:
> After 11 moves in the past 18 years I follow the
Heh.
Big secret to moving is big plastic storage crates. I spent about 300 quid on
them before this move for the stuff accumulated since the last move.
Everything goes in the crates, the crates go in the van, then they go in the
garage.
It means doing long term storage doesn't require any repacking. Things like
terrain are nice and safe, and the only trick required is directing the crates
to the right room.
My "office furniature" consists of these cube things from Ikea. You're
supposed to fit shelves and doors and things to the cubes, but if you just
leave them as cubes... crates go in them.
This time however, I wasn't able to do the moving due to the busted knee
- I
had a number of enthusiastic helpers. Who seem to have sorted the crates by
size first, then colour... not by content...
All of this is probably now unnecessary since I've bought the place and ain't
planning on moving again soon.
Old friend to whom I'm renting a room while he finishes up his doctoral
research says it's the 15th address he's had since starting his PhD. And good
god is he skilled at moving... It took him a day to pack, two days to unpack
and his entire life would have fitted into the van about three times over.
> --- katie@fysh.org wrote:
> It means doing long term storage doesn't require any repacking.
Things like
> terrain are nice and safe, and the only trick required is directing
Get some 1" colored stickers from Office Mac. Every box that comes from Room A
has a red sticker, from room B has a blue, etc.
Quoting Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net>:
> > It means doing long term storage doesn't require any repacking.
Yeah, I failed to get round to labelling them. I was working on the basis I
could direct traffic at the front door "put that one in the games room and
that one in the office"; but then people started trying to place furniature
with more creativity than understanding of the final goal[1], and it was
taking me a while to get to places...
By the time I got back the garage was full of stuff, piled up in inaccessible
ways that have taken six weeks of faffinf with before I have a garage which is
merely full.[2]
Transparent crates might be a better idea, but I can't find any that are
intentionally transparent. {As oppposed to just "made cheaply".}
[1] And my mother kept fussing over hanging curtains and whether we had
enough of the right curtain hooks and things. Like it's supposed to be the
FIRST thing you do or something.
[2] Not that it's any use for anything else. I thought people on the
estate owned a lot of cars, hence, lots on drives. Looking more closely, one
notices
they're all Beemer-3s or brand new Puggy 307s or Focii... now if they're
on the drive, whats in the garage? The answer is: the lawnmower. These are new
houses and therefore (presumably in the name of space economy) have, in
essence, ornamental garages.
I found this out after I had bought the place - when we went and
measured all the rooms and made cardboard scale furniature and scale
floorplans to work out where everything was going. We included a scale floor
plan of the garage, and a bundle of scale model crates, to see how many crates
would fit in the garage and still leave room for my car. The answer is "all of
them" because the scale model car barely fits through the scale model
doorway... certainly not with the kind of margins I'd consider usable.
My other half suggested I should have the garage door taken out, a window put
in and a door knocked through into the hall, because while it's a very small
garage it would make a very big room.. in fact it would make two sensibly
sized rooms.
What I would do with it, I don't know - I already have an office and a
games room. Two games rooms would be an extravagence....
Paint the floor black, put some "stars" and gas clouds on it then play FT with
1" as the measurement scale.
> On Fri, 2002-03-01 at 08:32, katie@fysh.org wrote:
> My other half suggested I should have the garage door taken out, a
> katie wrote:
> Big secret to moving is big plastic storage crates. I spent about 300
Not to mention, if they're transparent plastic, no labeling woes...
2B^2
Sorry, I mean 1'.
> On Fri, 2002-03-01 at 09:12, Tim Gray wrote: