GOOD MORNING!
i am glad to see some one else doing this; this is how real squads
manuever and fight-by fire teams!
sure they live together, train together, travel together, and fight together,
but, fighting by fire teams instead of whole squads makes much more sense.
some years ago in 40K (finally) space marines were allowed to fight as "battle
squads" (fire teams) of 5 SM.
LOL-well officially in the 40K universe the IG has to fight in 10 man
squads, but i and other blew this off in our games and allowed the IG and well
trained PDF to fight in fire teams of 4 or 5 (depending on overall squad
size).
currently, a friend of mine (an ex-USMC type) fights his SG II troops
in squads of 3 fire teams of 4 troopers each.
i fight some of my troops in fire teams of 5, and others (different forces) in
fire teams of 4 or 6 troops in SG II, 40K, and STARGUARD.
i also fight my troopers by fire team in other rules such as IS THIS ANOTHER
BUGHUNT?, MOBILE INFANTRY, and,awww, hell!
braindead just hit! cannot remember!
It depends largely on the army your using. In WW2 the armies had vastly
different MTO&Es,SOPs and tactics. The Germans for example built the squad
around the MG were it was used as the main offensive weapon with the
riflemen in support. The US army had only a BAR auto-rifle
in the squad all other heavy MGs were in the heavy weapons platoon detached to
support the rifle squads at need. The one thing that is very different from
today is that the squads were larger and tended to stay together and not brake
into fire teams with the exception of the Germans where the riflemen could
maneuver while the MG was in over watch.
Don
> And how would you go about it in ww2 settings??
> Don M wrote:
Separate groups of Bren guns and rifles were pretty standard in British WW2
practice, and remained so with the GPMG, and quite possibly remain so today.
The Bren gunner and assistant were supposed to neutralise the target from a
flank or rear position while the riflemen went in with grenades and bayonets.
German doctrine (according to wargames sources) relied on
obliterating the target with close-range machinegun fire to the
exclusion of any other close quarters fighting (excluding specialised SMG
squads). Every German squad was supposed to have a tripod for the machinegun,
the machinegun was a three man team, four including the squad leader who
directed it out of a nominal ten men (but in practice six to eight).
Panzergrenadiers commonly
dismounted a second MG from their half-track, so could hardly have
had any "riflemen" at all.
David,
> Separate groups of Bren guns and rifles were pretty standard in
Isn't more of an attachment to the standard squad?
> German doctrine (according to wargames sources) relied on
Tripods (as today) are only used on sustained defensive fire mode, in maneuver
you would normally use the bipod with an assistant gunner. So even with the
extra MG from the halftrack you'd have plenty of rifles.
> --- David Brewer <davidbrewer@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Panzergrenadiers commonly
The 'second' MG was the squad MG.
Don,
> David,
No, each section (= US squad) had a machinegun. (The platoon had a AT rifle
and (still has) a two inch mortar.)
> > German doctrine (according to wargames sources) relied on
According to my sources, the Germans allocated three men, two with the
machinegun (and pistols, and perhaps the tripod) one with a rifle carrying
additional ammo.
> So even with the extra MG from the halftrack you'd
With two men per MG and their fire directed by the squad leader, you might
have as many as three, if lucky. I'd think one of these would be a senior
private directing the second MG and the rest carry ammo.
To return to the point, my (limited) understanding is that almost all WW2
armies used a squad with it's own machinegun or automatic rifle, which could
operate as a small independent group covering advancing rifles and vice versa.
The British operated that way on the attack when the riflemen went into close
combat. The Germans so emphasised machineguns that the riflemen perhaps didn't
operate alone very much. The Americans eventually beefed up their infantry
with a second (or third) automatic rifle and perhaps started to operate in
"fireteams" at that time.
> > David,
Most modern units in most armies are set up similarly, the main difference is
the size of the units. They were quite a bit larger in WW2 (if at full
strength) than today.
> According to my sources, the Germans allocated three men, two with
I think this goes again to what was allocated and what was there.
> With two men per MG and their fire directed by the squad leader,
LOL they all still do carry ammo, trust me...
> To return to the point, my (limited) understanding is that almost
I've been looking into that a bit, it seems to be a natural progression. It
continues to today with the increase of fire power in the squad and
THE USMC RIFLE SQUADS WERE RE- ORGANIZED INTO 2 OR 3 FIRE TEAMS BEFORE
THE PACIFIC WAR ENDED. EACH FIRE TEAM WAS BUILT AROUND A BAR.
THEY ALSO HAD TOE ASSAULT SQUADS THAT WERE ORGANIZED INTO FIRE TEAMS; BUILT
AROUND A FLAME THROWER, A ROCKET LAUNCHER, AND A BAR.
LOL-OF COURSE THIS IS IF I REMEMBER RIGHT - I AM BRAINDEAD!
PROOF?
I FORGOT TO SWITCH DOWN TO LOWER CASE!
> Don M writes:
> It depends largely on the army your using. In WW2 the
At the moment we will only be using German and Russian forces, but eventually
some will buy British and US forces as well.
> The Germans for example built the squad around the MG
So US squads shouldn't be allowed to detach the BAR whereas the germans should
(with an assistant). Were they capable of working more independantly
ie should I make it possible to make a small MG unit with 2-3 soldiers
in
it??
> in the squad all other heavy MGs were in the heavy weapons
But these MGs would be able to work by them selves then??? (as small
units -
not detachments??)
> were larger and tended to stay together and not brake into
Yes, this is going to be interesting to observe. Even though the rifles won't
have the same firepower as normal SG stuff there will be more of them
:-)
Thanks!
---
With kind regards
> David Brewer writes:
> Separate groups of Bren guns and rifles were pretty standard in
Do you have any links to sites with this information?? I haven't been able
to find anything my self.. :-(
---
With kind regards
Claus, Here are a few things you may want to look over.
Don
Digital Library Chronological List site contains a huge archive of original
WW II manuals and documents for download in PDF - format.
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/DL/chron.htm#AWorldWarII19391945
Third Reich Factbook a swedish page (in english) with lots of facts on all the
various organizations and aspects of Germany (and allies) during WW II
http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/
Feldgrau.com - The German Armed Forces 1919-1945 a site which true to
it's title covers many many aspects of all the German (and axis) forces and
formations in WW II, mainly covering organizational and structural topics, but
is a valuable online resource for any other related aspects, too. Has a
message board on which experts will find an answer to probably any question
you could have on German units or weapons of that era.
http://www.feldgrau.com/
LANDSER a well-made and very informative site covering uniform, gear,
rank system and related aspects of the German infantry soldier in WW II
intended for reenactors, modelbuilders and historians.
http://members.shaw.ca/deutschesoldaten/
CANUCK at www.canadiansoldiers.com is the largest and most comprehensive
source, online or off, regarding the unifoms, traditions, and insignia of
Canadian soldiers in the 20th Century. Over 4,000 images on 200+ pages
dealing with history, equipment, literature and more are presented here for
students of history, re-enactors, modellers, gamers, serious researchers
and anyone interested in the Canadian Army between 1900 and 1999. Serious
contributions to site content, such as information, photos, or anecdotes, are
welcomed and will be fully credited. This site is proud to be a member of the
small but growing community of those interested in this diverse and important
subject area.
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/
This volume, one of the series UNITED STATES ARMY IN WORLD WAR II, is the
eighth to be published in the subseries, THE EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS.
The volumes in the overall series will be closely related and will present a
comprehensive account of the activities of the Military Establishment during
World War II. A list of subseries is appended at the end of this volume.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/7-8/7-8_CONT.HTM
from actual conversations with old landsers in the 60s, the squad LMG
(gunner-pistol, asst gunner-pistol or rifle or machine pistol and spare
barrel, tripod and ammo, plus an ammo bearer with rifle) and the actual squad
leader ( machine pistol and pistol) would provide a fire base, while the asst
squad leader ( machine pistol), another trooper with a
mchine pistol, and 4 riflemen, would fire and manuever into assault
range.
lol-of course, this 10 soldier squad TOE was usual a 5-6 soldier
squad, and on the eastern front, the number of machine pistols usually
outnumbered rifles!
also, captured USSR SMG and SL rifles were in much demand, even after
the MP-44 was in service.
also, HEER, used re-chambered, Polish, Czech, and French magazine fed
LMG in huge quantities-also the Danish Madsen LMG, as a substitute for
"official arms".
Polish pistols were also used extensively as a substitute for offical
sidearms.
from 1943 on, depending on the area of operations, the amount of captured
armor, SP guns, and other transport in us by the HEER was astonishing.
and still, unless the landser was in an elite formation, most of his transport
was by jack boot, horse drawn cart, or commandeered civvie trucks and cars
painted in HEER colors (sometimes).
also, uniforms! lord-the HEER troopers were wearing field gray and
steel gray in every imaginable shade variation (even when new!), camo jackets
and pants, camo smocks, etc, from German stores, Italian,
Hungarian, SS uniform items (w/o insiginia) Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine
uniforms. traditional jackboots and new combat boots (in brown and black
leather), black, brown, and tan leather gear, tan webbing, helmets in a wide
variety of colors, camo covers, camo nets.
snow cam ws either factory made or made from liberated sheets.
not quite the image that HOLLYWEIRD shows us of the HEER rank and file!
Just to add to the discussion on how to run detachments/fireteams:
I usually run detachments as written in SGII with one major difference. The
detachment is formed with a specific mission in mind (provide supporting
fire or something) and from then on it behaves as a unit in its own right
until it rejoins its parent unit.
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:17:40 -0600 (CST), DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
> sure they live together, train together, travel together, and fight
This discussion comes up several times on the list.
My personal feeling is that SG2 shouldn't use fireteams. The mechanics don't
easily support it. Fireteams are implicit in the squad formation and the game
scale.
I have run with small squads, but they tend to be for elite units. When you
take an SG2 squad and drop it to fireteam size, you have the following
results:
- more units to activate, thus a slowing down of the game
- more forgiving morale, because squads typically take fewer morale
checks before they are wiped out (and SG2 is already too easy on morale)
To do fireteams properly, you should have restrictions on their movement with
regard to the other fireteam in the squad, and you should have one cohesive
morale level for both fireteams in the squad. This requires a number of house
rules.
Plenty of people use fireteams in SG2, I just feel that they are implicit in
the squad set up. It's the difference between playing Squad Leader and Up
Front, to use board games as analogies. The forthcoming FMA Skirmish game
would be better suited to fireteams.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't try using fireteams in SG2, just that
from extensive playing I find that SG2 isn't "fine grained" enough to allow
fireteams as separate squads except with the use of house rules.
Allan G said:
> My personal feeling is that SG2 shouldn't use fireteams. The mechanics
<snip>
I absolutely agree with Allan here. Yes, you can play SG with small "squads"
representing fire teams, but the game bogs down. TomB tries to accomodate this
by using his house rules for independent Platoon Commanders
/ Platoon Sergeants and extra command actions (available at
http://www.stargrunt.ca) but personally, I feel it isn't necessary.
Like Allan, I think the granularity level of Stargrunt II is such that the
actions of fire teams is built into how a squad works in the game. That suits
the scale better, and keeps the game flowing faster.
Certainly, you *can* play with more small squads in a platoon - I just
don't find it as enjoyable. The slow-down in play does not compensate
for the increase in "realism". Given the differences between game scale and
figure scale, and the many other abstractions in the rules, just assuming that
fire teams are implicit in the standard squad seems to work just fine.