Fighters/PDS

3 posts ยท May 14 2002 to May 15 2002

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 20:47:06 +0200

Subject: Re: Fighters/PDS

> Alan Brain wrote:

> Possible solutions to the Bubble Carrier:

Er... well. Depends on your definition of "not much", I guess - if you
restrict the battle to the same 6 fighter squadrons throughout the fight

it'll take "morale-less" standard fighters on average 4 turns to destroy

the VF for the loss of 11 fighters, whereas morale-using fighters take 6

turns to destroy the VF for the loss of 16 fighters.

OK, this is considerably better than a massed wave of 114 fighters (19
squadrons, ie. the strike groups from soap-bubble carriers worth roughly

the same as 2 VFs) which take the VF out in one single turn for the loss of
only 4 fighters, since with the restricted-number-of-fighters-per-target

concept the VF at least has the chance of fleeing into hyperspace before

the fighters can destroy it.

(I haven't counted the VF's own fighters, since the enemy has overwhelming
fighter superiority anyway - the soap-bubble force will have at least 6
intact enemy squadrons available to engage the VF once its fighters have

been destroyed.)

> Plan 2

You have to adjust it all the way down to 5 (PHC Draath), though the NAC

carriers aren't much better (6.7 and 7 respectively). As Roger noted, this
makes this suggestion rather toothless. Even if you include both hull and
armour in the "hull" requirement you can't go higher than 8 damage boxes

per fighter bay.

> Plan 3

I see three immediate problems with this:

* This is very similar to how old-style (pre-3rdR) Starfire advanced
point
defences worked. Having to continously re-assign new targets to PDSs
slows the game down by a factor lots.

* "a different target" includes missiles as well as fighters. Are you really
sure that you never want more than one PDS to shoot at any specific missile
salvo..?

* The formulation means that ADFC suddenly has its value increased by a couple
orders of magnitude or so, since that's the only way your idea allows multiple
shots against a single target. This makes the FB ships look
even more under-PDSed than they are now, given their general lack of
ADFC.

> Result: PDS do less damage against small numbers of fighter groups -

The PDSs do more damage against large numbers of fighter groups... but they
still don't do anywhere near *enough* more damage to give the FB1 ships a
fighting chance against a fighter swarm.

> The basic problem with most solutions to the Soap Bubble Carrier

Except the "reduced-effect PDS fires against all" one :-/ That one has
problems of its own, of course

> c) Adopt the "principle of minimum change". Under no circumstances

c) is mutually exclusive to itself. Given the magnitude of the fighter and
big-ship imbalances, you can't avoid changing the PVs unless you're
prepared to make pretty significant changes in the game mechanics -
because under the current game mechanics, the PVs are quite simply wrong for
massed fighters vs anything else, and for large ships vs small ones.

(As Laserlight noted, small numbers of fighters don't need to be useful for
attacking *SDNs* - as long as there are other tasks for them to carry
out.
However, if the enemy has nothing *but* SDNs - and given the current
big-ship advantage, that's fairly likely - attacking SDNs is the only
task
available for them... so the big-ship advantage needs to be trimmed down
as well. Which in turn means either to introduce new mechanics, or to change
the PVs.)

Regards,

From: Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@h...>

Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:55:21 -0700

Subject: Re: Fighters/PDS

> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:

> c) is mutually exclusive to itself. Given the magnitude of the fighter

IYEO, which is the easier route to take? We've been discussing Fighter
mechanics, but what about Big Ship PV's or mechanics? If you address
PV's,
what about making the cost for total mass a function using M^2 instead of just
M (Where M is total mass)? Or is that OVERcompensation?

3B^2

From: Alan and Carmel Brain <aebrain@w...>

Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:31:37 +1000

Subject: Re: Fighters/PDS

From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>

> >Plan 1

The key is 6 turns - using a floating map, the VFs can accelerate so
they're out of fighter move, under a fixed map, they're amongst the juicy
carriers. OK, so morale is required. Check.

> (I haven't counted the VF's own fighters, since the enemy has

Fair enough. call it an extra 9 fighters lost. Total 16+16+9 fighters,
if I read you right, 8 groups.

> >Plan 2

> You have to adjust it all the way down to 5 (PHC Draath

Right. Given this, how many squadrons equals 2 VFs? (ie make a design, with
say thrust 2 and FTL and minimum hull, no armament with max fighters. About
what, 15 fighter groups?
So a soap-bubble carrier will lose about 50% of its fighter complement,
and get within weapons range, or the VFs will escape.

This seems almost right. It's not that I think the matchup should be a
50/50
thing, I just don't want a massacre with no significant loss.

> >Plan 3

Good point, I'd like to see it tried before I agree though.

> * "a different target" includes missiles as well as fighters. Are you

OK, missiles anything goes.

> * The formulation means that ADFC suddenly has its value increased by

A criticism that rather torpedeoes the whole thing. Blast. One neat theory
slain by an ugly fact.