Fighter groups (designer please read)

6 posts ยท Feb 14 1997 to Feb 17 1997

From: hal@b...

Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 04:25:36 -0500

Subject: Re: Fighter groups (designer please read)

> I agree with the intent of the endurance rules but I think the return

Hello List and designer, As I mentioned once before with respect towards
designing a strategic version of FT (ie economics, shipbuilding times,
etc...), FT enjoys the
same flaw that STARFIRE has - namely the pinning down of actual
space/volume configuration.
Consider: a M1 Abrams supposedly takes up around 1600 cubic feet (or 535 cubic
yards). According to More Full Thrust, a MBT takes up 12 spaces, and each of a
"MASS" can hold 50 "spaces". If one assumes that there is a 30% wastage space
for holding equipment, then each cargo space is about 175 cubic feet, with
each MASS being about 8750 cubic feet, or roughly 325 cubic yards. Therefore,
without being particularly nasty about those who would like to keep the volume
of a "mass" nebulous, we already have one "measurement" that would seem to
apply to FT. For those who desire to avoid this "pinning down" of the elusive
volume per MASS ratio <grinning> ignore it. However, the
situation with regards to the fighter endurance - that is again a
problem that should be addressed at some point of time or another. Endurance
is a
measure of staying power - which implies a time limit.  The question is,
what is the time duration of each turn? Duration is a combination of fuel
duration, life support duration, and perhaps pilot wear and tear. How long can
a pilot last? How long did the bombers of world war II last? How long does
fuel last? If there is a fuel restriction on fighters, why not is there a fuel
restriction on the main line ships? I guess the real question regards to
duration is based upon the life support. How long can they survive the life
support? I find it "unrealistic" that the duration for a fighter is only 3
turns offensively, AND 3 turns to return to base. What I would like to see
happen overall, in echo of the previous poster who asked about extending the
landing duration timeperiod, is that each turn be given a reasonable time
duration, and that each inch is given a reasonable distance. I believe the
phrase here is "scale". Light is known to travel 186,000 miles per second. In
three seconds, light will have travelled 558,000 miles. In 5 seconds, it
travels some 930,000
miles, which is approximately 1/100th the distance of an AU.  If we
assume that the distance of 36 inches is the distance that a "beam" weapon can
travel and still be effective and you rule that the "time duration" is one
second, then one inch equals approximately 5,000 miles!

WARNING:

FULL THRUST is meant to be a "game" and it is meant to be fun. Assigning scale
is where it gets to be messy in my opinion, and by using the artificial
limitation of how many turns the fighters can be on the board, I think the
ugly problem of scale begins to rear it's ugly head. My suggestion is to go
back to the original rule regarding unlimited duration. If the reason fighter
duration became an issue was due to the unbalancing feature or strength of
fighers, then the fighters themselves
should be limited, not their duration - for that implies a time scale,
which is reasonably measureable.

SUGGESTION: use the limitation that fighters can only fire 3 shots of ship
killing power, and unlimited shots for anti-fighter work.  Returning
to the carrier or ship with fighter bays allows one to "recharge" the ship
killing capacitors. Variances on fighters can now include their "weapon
load outs" in the form of how many ship killing shots they have.   Also,
to be reasonable, fighters should have a higher point cost to reflect their
combat value. I am aware that Jon would like to avoid recalculating the point
cost values, but I would endorse this plan of action should he ever print
another edition of FULL THRUST. As time goes one, more and more experience is
being gathered about weaponry and their tactics in the game. If through
general playing and playtesting, it is discovered that certain weapons are not
efficient in terms of the game, or perhaps some weapons are overly efficient,
then the point cost formula needs to be revamped.

In all, I like the movement system from FULL THRUST. I also like the combat
system for the weaponry. To get a full "tactical" feel to Full Thrust, perhaps
the 270 degree firing arc needs to be toned down to either a 90 degree arc, or
perhaps a 180 degree arc. In addition, I would like to see an amendment to the
rules regarding needle beam damage and damage control parties. It is
unrealistic to assume that anyone would be interested in using a needle beam
when the limited damage that the needle beam can do is nullified easily
enough. Consider: a ship with two damage control parties can fix the damage
from one needle beam with a 1 in three chance. In two turns, that is 2 in 3
chance. The needle beam takes up "mass" whereas the damage control party does
not. All in all, I think that Needle beam damage should not be
repairable by damage control parties - otherwise, the advent of damage
control parties makes this weapon obsolete (which some say is not worth the
point cost in any event! Solution: make needle beams use only 1 space rather
than two...)

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:25:52 -0500

Subject: Re: Fighter groups (designer please read)

> On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Hal Carmer wrote:

> Hello List and designer,

The Starfire 3rd ed. rules doesn't pin down the space/volume
configuration, though there is a reference in the Weber/White novel
"Insurrection" giving the mass of a Superdreadnought and a Supermonitor.

> Therefore, without being

There are two different volume/hull space scales given (implicitly) in
More Thrust - one in the FT/DSII interface, and one in the FT/Hellfire
interface. Which one is "right"? Does it matter?

> I guess the real question regards to duration is based upon the life

Unlimited pre-attack manouvering, three turns of dogfighting/attacking,
and three turns to return to the carrier.

> In all, I like the movement system from FULL THRUST. I also like

Yes. Couple weapon fire arc to weapon mass...

> In addition, I would like to see an amendment to the rules regarding

Uh... no. IIRC, needle beam damage cannot be repaired by DCPs (but my memory
is as always somewhat unreliable...). As a side note: each DCP roll is made
separately, so two DCPs working on a single system has a
11/36 (almost 1/3) chance to repair it, while four DCP rolls have a 52%
chance to repair it.

Later,

From: Samuel Penn <sam@b...>

Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:09:18 -0500

Subject: Re: Fighter groups (designer please read)

In message
<Pine.BSI.3.95.970214031122.21174A-100000@buffnet7.buffnet.net> you
wrote:

> What I would like to see happen overall, in echo of the previous

Okay, totally pig-headed reasoning follows. You have been warned!

Well, since planet templates are suggested to be 12" across, this suggests
1"=1000km (approximately). This seems to give reasonable weapon ranges (IMO).

We can use the planet rules to work out the length of turns as
well. A ship in orbit around an Earth-like planet has an orbital
period of roughly 12 turns - at an orbital radius of 12,000km
(measured from the centre of the planet).

This is approximately twice the height of a low Earth orbit, which has a
period of 90 minutes. Using a^3 = P^2 (Keplar's
Laws of orbital motion - 'a' is radius, P is period), we get
an orbital period of about 255 minutes. 255 divided by 12 turns gives a 21
minute turn.

Of course, since the rules on planets and orbits were probably chosen with
absolutely no regard to realism, the above is nothing more than a very good
example of GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). Anyone who is interested in using
this btw, better check the arithmatic, since I'm currently half asleep.

From: hal@b...

Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:29:47 -0500

Subject: Re: Fighter groups (designer please read)

> At 10:09 PM 2/15/97 +0100, you wrote:

I don't have a problem with 21 minute turns. Reason: if one assumes that the
turns are 21 minutes, then the laser fire rules indicate that there are more
than one shots being fired per "beam weapon" mount. The reasoning for allowing
more "hits" per beam weapon mount as the ships get closer is that
the odds of hitting go up with a closer target - thus, the reasoning is
good enough to indicate that the "range" doesn't change, but the frequency of
hits do (nicely simulated by using more dice for hits as the range closes).

Where this might break down is the scattergun rules for mass projectiles...

From: Ground Zero Games <jon@g...>

Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 06:50:15 -0500

Subject: Re: Fighter groups (designer please read)

Sam wrote:(re turn length and distance scale...)

> Well, since planet templates are suggested to be 12" across, this

First, yes you're right in your assumption that no math went into the
planets/orbits rules!! They were chosen completely arbitrarily to give
what I thought was the right "feel" for the game (as is the case with most of
the rules).

Funnily enough, looking at your calculations above, the idea of 1" = 1000km
and an approx. 20 minute turn actually feels about right for the
game...!
Wierd how things work out (of course, now loads of people will work out all
the OTHER math (velocities, accelerations, fuel usage etc.) based on this and
then shoot it full of holes....).

From: Samuel Penn <sam@b...>

Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:36:30 -0500

Subject: Re: Fighter groups (designer please read)

> In message <9702161529.aa10013@buffnet1.buffnet.net> Hal wrote:

> I don't have a problem with 21 minute turns. Reason: if one assumes

I actually assume laser fire is continuous, and accurate enough to keep the
beam trained on a target over the entire course of the turn. Ships don't die
because they've had a hole drilled through them, but because they can't dump
the heat fast enough and their outer hull has just melted...

Railguns are rapid fire weapons, firing thousands of rounds (or more), few of
which hit, and the damage rolled is the combined damage from all those that
hit over the course of the turn.

It doesn't matter too much either way for ship to ship combat.