[FH] Pantropists and John Crimmins was ecofundamentalists

G'day,

> "Pantropists" is what I was looking for.

Yep they're the ones (I have such an awful memory for names!). I was just
wondering of John C had taken them any further, he did talk about some mini's
I think. Still out there John?

Cheers

> At 12:51 PM 11/17/02 +1100, you wrote:

Yah, yah...been busy of late (working on a scenario for GZGECC, among other
things), and the list has been going largely unread. I've gotten wise,
y'see -- anything marked OT goes right in the trash, and no tempting me!

Haven't done diddly with the Pantropists, sadly. Still want to, but I need to
find their niche...gaming wise, I mean. Unlike my other undeveloped idea, the
Hanseatic League, they don't fit very well into standard games.

They have no armor, and thus don't fit into Dirtside. Their ships are not, to
say the least, up to military standards...so they'd be slaughtered in Full
Thrust.

Even Stargrunt, they're not skilled or disciplined enough to go up against a
standard military force.

FMA Skirmish, on the other hand.... Well, that's another story. Pit 'em
against security guards, cops, and assorted civilians, and then you'd have
something gameable. They've got excellent morale (being a bunch of
fanatics, and all), so-so skills, and fair-to middling weapons.  I'm
thinking a lot of Greens, a few regulars, and one or two Vets to keep things
organized...all with motivation levels of 1 or 2.

Figures, there's two options:

The first is a bunch of, well, animals. I have these wonderful old Ral Partha
Psions, which look like some of Wayne Barlowe's creations...

(as an aside, Barlowe's _Exipedition_ is an AMAZING depiction of a very
alien acology.  Well thought-out, beautifully painted, and well worth
purchasing if you can still find it.)

...and they'd work for Pantropists designed to live on an alien world.

The other option is for bulky powered armor, to go for that Vorlon Encounter
Suit vibe. For that, I think that Eureka's "Retro Powered Armor" would work
very well indeed. Just got my hands on an example, and I love it.

In the end, I think that I'll probably combine the two for the best possible
variety of figures. That end, sadly, is a long way off right now.

> Even Stargrunt, they're not skilled or disciplined enough to go up

It doesn't take skill and discipline. An armed rabble can do the trick, if
there are enough of them and they keep coming. (IRL that doesn't work but it
can in SG).

> At 11:48 PM 11/16/02 -0500, you wrote:

Ah, but the subtle flaw is that the armed rabble requires LOTS of painted
figures. Not an option at this point, as the Psion figs are all UNarmed,
and I've only got, well...<mumble>one</mumble> of those Retro PA minis.

If, on the other hand, the Pantropists look *just* like the Aliens from the
movie of the same name, then I'm golden. That probably stretching things just
a little too much, though.

> On Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 12:36:37AM -0500, John Crimmins wrote:

> If, on the other hand, the Pantropists look *just* like the Aliens from

Maybe they've decided that the optimum form for planet whatever is slightly
taller than human, with grey skin and large slanted eyes...
:-)

> If, on the other hand, the Pantropists look *just* like the Aliens from

Did they have just one planet? Might they have the variety if they've 'homed'
two or more worlds, with different conditions? Sorry, I EXTREMELY fuzzy on
their whole FH...

The_Beast

> At 07:04 AM 11/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

They're scattered over half a dozen planets, plus a few deep space habitats.

The Pantropist philosophy centers on living in harmony with the planets,
which they consider to be living beings -- Lovelock's "Gaia Hypothesis"
taken to a very extreme position. To this end, they find the very idea of
terraforming to abhorrent, on the level of genocide, even in the case of a
world with no life advanced beyond the bacterial stage.

Their extremism got them into trouble in two ways: first when they stared
blowing up the corporate headquaters of companies involved in terraforming
research, and then when they began genetically altering human beings
(forbidden under internation law), which lead to the creation of aquatic
humans.

Most of their leaders ended up under arrest, while the remainder fled the
planet and took rfuge wherever they could.

Early experiments involved adapting human beings to live in new environments
while still maintaining a humanoid form (thus the Encounter Suit guys, who
could just be, say, ammonia breathers) while the more radical fringe have
entirely discarded the human form and have been
designing people that will fit more-or-less seamlessly into alien
ecosystems.

*These* Pantropists don't look human at all, and probably aren't humans in any
meaningful way. Their societies are developing in some very unusual (and a
little disturbing) ways.

***
*These* Pantropists don't look human at all, and probably aren't humans in any
meaningful way. Their societies are developing in some very unusual (and a
little disturbing) ways.
***

Ok then, there COULD be multiple body types, even on the same planet, with
possible contention/conflict between the sulphur-mud dwellers and the
CH/4-sea dwellers, inspite of the harmony theories...

Your call.

The_Beast

> At 9:58 AM -0500 11/17/02, John Crimmins wrote:

So how many mistakes did they make? And did they just gloss over those?

> *These* Pantropists don't look human at all, and probably aren't humans

Ftah Ftah! Narethotehp aeeii, Ftah!

> At 11:33 AM 11/17/02 -0500, you wrote:

Acknowledged them (privately, as they didn't want to tip their hands to the
world too soon) and moved on. They were working on their own children, and
doing so in a very cold-blooded and precise way.

When they *did* go public with their experiments, they had mobs howling for
their blood in no time at all. And with good reason.

> *These* Pantropists don't look human at all, and probably aren't

I've actually been thinking of using this background for an RPG campaign at
some point, with the players making what they first assume to be first contact
with an ailen race...only to discover that no, these guys are relatives.

As a result, I've given this a lot of thought in the past

> At 09:06 AM 11/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

Oh, certainly. Any raiding ecotage parties would likely be made up of
representatives from several different morphologies, although the younger
generation is somewhat less interested in all of this nonsense.

Why go out and risk your life for a cause that you don't enitirely understand
(or believe in), when you can enjoy a nice comforting soak in a methane pool
at home?

G'day,

> Yah, yah...been busy of late...I've gotten wise,

The reason I threw your name into the subject line... harder to resist that
way;)

> Haven't done diddly with the Pantropists, sadly....

That is sad, though I do take your point.

> Even Stargrunt, they're not skilled or disciplined enough to

I wouldn't let that stop you. You could either run them as small elite bands,
if they're using their natural skills they may well be a heck of a lot more
honed than standard humans are. Alternatively you could go for larger more
fluid mobs. If you also said they had some natural weaponry, like bombardier
beetles, spitting snakes, skunks etc do then they could at least have short
range fire ability if you didn't want a completely
hand-to-hand force.

> FMA Skirmish, on the other hand....

Oh yeah I agree!!!

> The first is a bunch of, well, animals. I have these

Cool. I think they're the ones I remember you writing about originally
(?)

> (as an aside, Barlowe's _Exipedition_ is an AMAZING depiction

I'll have to start looking;)

> The other option is for bulky powered armor, to go for that Vorlon

That sounds like a really great thought! Mmmmm now that sets me a thinking...
and so close to Christmas too;)

> In the end, I think that I'll probably combine the two for the best

Would you could do in the interim is just bring everything you've got... the
locals could just be from many habitats (look at the range her on Earth) or
they may have called in reinforcements.

Sounds like its gonna be fun when you get the chance;)

Cheers

> --- John Crimmins <johncrim@voicenet.com> wrote:

> *These* Pantropists don't look human at all, and

Wow.

People that the NRE and IFed could join hands to detest.

If only long enough to sterilize their planets.

> On Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 03:39:49PM -0800, John Atkinson wrote:

Now _there's_ an FT scenario.

Per damage point done to the surface bases: 1 point. Per "allied" ship kill:
CPV.
Per "allied" ship that gets away to give their side of the story: -100
points.

R

Roger said:
> Now _there's_ an FT scenario.

<g> You don't need the NRE--you can get that effect with just the IF

> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

Uhh... If and Only If the skilled and disciplined force is willing to
voluntarily forgo using it's firepower for political reasons (Somalia, fer
instance, where we had the artillery standing by but could not get political
authorization to use it in an urban area).

Armored vehicles or adequate artillery support can
make short work of any realistic number of rabble--and
kill a large enough percentage of an unrealistic crowd to break their hearts
for a generation.

good morning!

i may be as thick as a stevedore's sandwich, but why not use SG II for these
guys? the personal armor, weaponry, and morale seem to cover the entire
spectrum of possible troop types.

BUT . . . . .

if you have any doubts, GOTO;

twohourwargames@yahoogroups.com

and lurk, read archives, or jump in feet first to find out what others
think about your eco-nut crusader whacos from space idea.

personally, i think the GUNS AND GIRLS / CHAIN REACTION rules system is
quite flexible, fast playing, fun, easy to learn, and very unique in concept.

i use them as is  all of the time for near future sci-fi skirmishes, and
find it very easy to bring other weaponry into the CR system and rate.

DAWGIE SAYS CHECK THEM OUT AS A VERY VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO SGII...

DISCLAIMER; i am one of the playtestor s who took the basic gang warfare
concept and ran with it for bug hunts, star grunt skirmishes, routine traffic
stop gunfights, armed robberies, WW II skirmishes, zombies vs chopper chix,
raids, kidnappings, jungle patrols, aliens want our women, bootleggers vs
cops, gangsters vs giant spiders, genepool asset raids, SWAT COPS vs wotever,
merc vs rebels, downed VTOL aircraft rescues (ala BLACKHAWK DOWN), explorers
vs cavemen, dino hunting, and other fertile scenarios.

DAWGIE

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:11:33 -0600 (CST), DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote :

> good morning!

Stargrunt is a possibility with the right scenario, true. Under most
circumstances, though, any kind of standard military force will go through the
Pantropists like a hot knife through butter. They've got no discipline, little
training, and a rather motley assortment of weapons.

The rule system is the problem; it's just that they're just not a militarily
oriented group. Think of them as P.E.T.A, but significantly more obnoxious
(hard though
that may be to believe) and at least marginally more dangerous --
P.E.T.A., so
far as I know, does not have the means or motive to create bioengineered viral
plagues to wipe out entire colonies.

The more I think about the Pantropists, the more I realize that if I'm going
higher than skirmish level, they'll work best as background material for
scenarios rather than direct participants. They're certainly willing to hire
people to blow things up, kidnap prominent Terraforming advocates, and engage
in industrial espionage for them. And it's not like most of the governments of
the Tuffleyverse wouldn't happily wipe them all out if they had a chance,
either.

(This has gotten me thinking more about the PS, though, further fleshing out
their background. They come into being circa 2043 or so, after the publication
of a book
called _Gaiacide_.  The book's thesis is that A: The Earth is a living
being, and that B: the human race is precisely analogous to a cancerous growth
that is slowly killing it's the entire planet. The only answer, obviously, is
to become "benign" and start living in harmony with the planet. Not
surprisingly, the book is almost entirely ignored by the general public. A
year or two later, the Pantropist Society forms and starts making trouble....
There's a John Varley quote that sums up their philosophy *perfectly*, but I
don't have the book available right now. It's something along the lines of:
"The human race needs to grow up, and stop defining itself by something as
arbitary
as a genetic code.", from the book _The Ophiuchi Hotline_.)

One idea that might work as an SGII scenario is a hapless force that's landed
on a planet that's been settled by Pantropists. Those local animals are a lot
more
intelligent -- and hostile -- than they first appear....

> One idea that might work as an SGII scenario is a hapless force that's

The "unreasonably hostile critters" thing has been done, though--Harry
Harrison's Warworld IIRC, and David Drake's Redliners, among others. What sets
the Pantheistic Eco Terrorist Association apart? Maybe instead of vicioiusly
attacking with weapons, they try to convert the soldiers instead.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:36:02 -0500, "laserlight@quixnet.net"
<laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

> >One idea that might work as an SGII scenario is a hapless force
What
> sets the Pantheistic Eco Terrorist Association apart? Maybe instead

Ah, but the old chestnuts make for fine wargame scenarios, don't they?

As to the other, though.... I recently read an excellent SF book called
_Fallen
Dragon_, by Peter F. Hamilton, that had a *very* similar scene.  The
natives do their share of killing the invaders, but seem far more interested
in teaching
them the error of their ways and comverting them to *their* life-style.

Wonderful book, and SGII applicable in a lot of different ways what with the
PA infantry who are one of the focuses of the book.

This does have me wondering whether there's any place for Transhumanism in the
Tuffleyverse. It's a different kind of hard SF, but writers are treating it
with just as much rigor and accuracy as the traditional stuff.

It allows for a fascinating variety of cultures, something always worth
considering.

And I have no doubt that the Alrishi have a few such cultures germinating
within their territory....

> Transhumanism

BioGen Pharmaceuticals AG is the only sovereignity that gets into serious
genetic manipulation, insofar as I know. And no one knows much about BioGen.

> At 6:43 PM -0500 11/18/02, John Crimmins wrote:

I rather liked the opposite direction in March Up Country and March to the
Sea.
The invaders (albeit temporary), manage to co-opt one of the towns
and start an industrial revolution by introducing all sorts of advanced
mechanical designs of 1860's level technology. When thrown at the 1500's era
technology of the rest of the planet, it's quite amazing.

Of course the various rifles, rockets and a single M60 against the mercenary
tercio from 1632 was entertaining as heck.

It was the M-60 that broke them. One in five of those rounds was a
tracer. On that gray and cloudy day, the tracers blazed like streaks of magic
fire. To Tilly's men, and the Scots who watched, it seemed as if a sorcerer's
wand was smiting them down. Along with, seconds later, the spitfire of a
dragon. Ferrara and Jeff's confidence proved to be warranted. The warheads on
the rockets were not particularly powerful, but the missiles themselves sped
swift and true.
The center of the tercio finally caved in under the M-60's blazing
hammer blows. Holes were torn throughout the formation by the
rockets. And, everywhere in the first five ranks-and then the next,
and then the next, and then the next-men withered under the deadly
rifle fire. In less than two minutes after the battle erupted, the proud and
confident little army which had marched on Badenburg was an utter ruin.

--- "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
wrote:

> apart? Maybe instead of

OK, let's see your rules mechanics for evangelism.

Ryan Gill said
> I rather liked the opposite direction in March Up Country and March

I suspect you're thinking of Eric Flint's 1632 and 1633. March Up Country
takes place on a different planet.

> > apart? Maybe instead of vicioiusly attacking with weapons, they

John A said:
> OK, let's see your rules mechanics for evangelism.

Would take place out of game time--but then you'd have your former
buddies trying to take your position...

> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

Of course, some forces are immune to this sort of silliness.

Turkish soldiers in the Korean War showed a remarkable resistance to
brainwashing. Partially because no one in the Chinese Army spoke Turkish,
partially because they weren't bright enough, but most importantly, because
they were convinced of their own place in the world and the rightness of their
Turkish and Islamic worldview. Only those raised in liberal societies have the
delusion that every worldview is equally valid, and hence are susceptible to
persuasion. A force with an ideology that flatly denies the validity of
opposing viewpoints will be very hard to crack.

John said:
> Of course, some forces are immune to this sort of silliness.

Yes, I'm kind of assuming it would be UN soldiers who would be most likely to
get converted. UN is the standard Bad Guys around here. I
also have the UN Marines appearing as Faceless Minions #1-9, assisting
the forces of evil (specifically Darth Binks--can't get much more evil
than that) in a test FMAS game (the other side is Torg, Riff, Zoe and
Bun-bun).

> At 08:53 PM 11/18/02 -0500, you wrote:

You have excellent taste. And what, pray tell, are you using for a
Bun-bun
figure?

It's probably worth noting that the FMA scenario that I'm going to be running
at Philcon this year is called "Bring Me the Head of Harry Potter."

It's probably worth noting that the FMA scenario that I'm going to be running
at Philcon this year is called "Bring Me the Head of Harry Potter."

> >Yes, I'm kind of assuming it would be UN soldiers who would be most
I
> >also have the UN Marines appearing as Faceless Minions #1-9,

JohnC said:
> You have excellent taste. And what, pray tell, are you using for a

Everyone else is 15mm, Bun-bun is a 6mm figure--if I had 6mm Alarishi
powered armor, they'd be about the right grey/white scheme, but I
don't. However, I have KV, and the attitude seems to fit, so that's what I'm
using.

> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

> than that) in a test FMAS game (the other side is

Bun-bun?

*Boggles*

How does one fit Bun-bun onto a FMAS board?  It'd be
several times the length of the board... and with a 16" gun firing nuclear
shells, it would be a bit overkill.:P

> At 10:34 PM -0800 11/18/02, John Atkinson wrote:

Hee!

> How does one fit Bun-bun onto a FMAS board? It'd be

That's Anti-Matter there John. A bit more punch for the pound than
plain old garden variety Nukes.

Easy, the hill they're fighting around. That's Bun-Bun's flanks. That
colliepe position up on top of the hill, thats one of the metal storm turrets.

John, if you ever get a chance to meet John Ringo in person, I recommend the
time. He's quite an interesting chap.

> At 7:24 PM -0500 11/18/02, Laserlight wrote:

I said that.

"Of course the various rifles, rockets and a single M60 against the mercenary
tercio from 1632 was entertaining as heck."

the first bit was describing March up country. The technology on Marduk is at
best 1500s if that much.

> At 8:53 PM -0500 11/18/02, Laserlight wrote:

Don't forget Zim....And you really can't brainwash Gir.

> than that) in a test FMAS game (the other side is

JohnA said:
> How does one fit Bun-bun onto a FMAS board? It'd be

Not *that* Bun-bun.  The SHEVA was named after the original Bun-bun, a
miniature lop-eared rabbit with a switchblade and a Glock.  See
www.sluggy.com and read the first couple of months of the strip.

> John, if you ever get a chance to meet John Ringo in person, I

see www.johnringo.com for some of his essays and rants

--- "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
wrote:

> Not *that* Bun-bun. The SHEVA was named after the

I know. Have started reading Sluggy.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:24:18 -0800 (PST), John Atkinson
> <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I know. Have started reading Sluggy.

Has it gotten better? I started reading it about 2 years ago. I even had a
link to it on my web site and bought the first two book (collections of the
online comic). After a while it just got... tedious. There was one story line
that just didn't seem to work and I lost interest. I'm wondering if it's worth
going back to it.

> Has it gotten better? I started reading it about 2 years ago. I even

This last couple of weeks has been a bit of a slump, IMO, but generally I've
been pretty pleased...of course, I'm mostly reading it at work...

> --- Allan Goodall <agoodall@hyperbear.com> wrote:

> --- John Crimmins <johncrim@voicenet.com> wrote:

Cool. The GZGverse is suffering from 'giant empire' syndrome, especially with
regards to the two principal alien groups (K'V & S'V), we need more
small races of non-humans.

Bring them on!

--- "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
wrote:
> > than that) in a test FMAS game (the other side is

Finally finished it all yesterday.

Why Zoe?  Torg, Riff, Bun-Bun, Aylee, and Kiki would
be my choices.

> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

Kiki? Melee? I'd count her as an area of effect weapon. Blast radius of the
'poing' being relative to the amount of sugar she's had recently.

> Why Zoe? Torg, Riff, Bun-Bun, Aylee, and Kiki would

I wasn't planning to try the melee rules, and Zoe can use a gun.   And
I was using the 15mm colonist militia figures, which include some females.