> On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
i nicked it from an episode of 'sliders'. the one, predictably, where the
british won the war of independence.
> > a simpified form of this, suitable for a non-denominational,
this is
> > the logo i've used for nac ships when i've needed one, and it looks
well, this is not a national symbol, it is a personal one, belonging to the
monarch. it reflects the heraldry of the ancestors of our current royal
family. sort of. now, whether the personal arms of the monarch will find use
as the state arms of the commonwealth is a different matter.
anyway, in heraldry, white and silver are the same, so you can't really do an
overlay such as you suggest. this stems from the fact that silver and gold are
hard to do on shields, flags, etc.
> Or maybe just something simple, that acknowledges that it is
good point well made.
> Maybe just a Gold Crown on a Red
the problem is that this is a new symbol. one the one hand, this is the *new*
anglian commonwealth we're discussing; on the other hand, i think an more
established symbol would be preferable; on the gripping hand, the
stylised crown is quite widely used - it is (or was) engraved on all
pint
and half-pint glasses. i think that the crown - in any combination of
colours and with any supplementary symbol beneath it - would be a
versatile and recognisable nac symbol. obviously, gold would be a preferred
colour for the crown, but if it was to be on a blue navy uniform, it would go
on a blue background. the background for the national flag might concievably
be the union jack or the royal standard. or just a plain field.
> Then in each country, a figure is placed under the crown to
ulster (if the south escaped evil british clutches once again) - could
be a red hand; this is a traditional ulster symbol, god knows why. probably
stained with the blood of catholics or something jolly like that :-(.
> In Wales, something
wales - a dragon.
> In Scotland, a
scotland - could be a thistle
england - three lions (as in 'on a shirt')
> In South America, whatever symbols would
this is quite a cool idea.
> And commonwealth vessels would display the Gold-Crown-On-Red flag of
well, there is an old symbol that was used by the war department up until the
1950s, which is derived from the arms of the family which held the office of
marshal of england (or whatever) in the middle ages, which is in turn a
stylised arrowhead:
#
###
# # #
# # #
# # #
which isn't too bad, although it isn't terribly distinctive.
(interlude: i look up 'english royal symbols' on the web, and i get a
million hits on the arms of canada - chance, or *yet another* sinister
canuk conspiracy?)
btw, the flag of the current commonwealth is really poor - a blue field,
a
gold stylised globe and a set of rays which go around 3/4 of it, making
a 'c' shape. very corporate.
what if the former usa (minus cal-tex) has been broken up into more
manageable chunks, like new england, the southeast, the midwest, etc. do these
areas, larger than a state, have their own symbols? do such divisions even
exist in the american worldview?
so, the nac-as-a-whole symbol is the crown, and the following things
have the following symbols positioned under the crown:
england - three lions
scotland - lion rampant / thistle
wales - dragon
ireland/ulster - harp / red hand
canada - maple leaf
former usa - eagle
quebec - fleur de lys
brazil - astral globe (off current flag) etc
army - war department arrowhead
navy - anchor ?
parliament - portcullis
etc. all fairly straightforward.
Tom who is very happy that he finally got to use a Motie grammar construct
> On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
You didn't have to tell us, we were content to give you credit...
> Or maybe just something simple, that acknowledges that it is
I like this idea...as well as many of the additions and suggestions made by
others
> And commonwealth vessels would display the Gold-Crown-On-Red flag of
> what if the former usa (minus cal-tex) has been broken up into more
do
> these areas, larger than a state, have their own symbols? do such
The division of into more manageable territories seems very plausible (if
you can swallow the initial 'US reabsorbed by Commonwealth' business -
but that's the assumption were operating under...)
In some ways there are such divisions, in other ways, no. I am not aware of
any symbols for regions, or even a strongly communicated sense of identity for
any of them. The divisions are usually used by people to
identify all the other regions, but not their own - I guess that may be
because they have their sense of identity, but haven't developed a fine sense
for the identity of others.
Of course I have to wonder what happens to Alaska in this scenario - We
are classified as part of the northwestern US, but have very little in common
with any other NW states. Probably have more in common with the Yukon
Territory than any other location, except Alaska is more conservative -
I
suppose that if we had to suffer the indignity of re-absorbtion the
Yukon
would be a good sister-state - lots of land, very few people. Nat'l
resource intensive economy. I guess I should find out a bit more about the
Yukon administration...
> so, the nac-as-a-whole symbol is the crown, and the following things
> england - three lions
Just be sure to omit the 'Ordem e Progresso' banner (Order & Progress -
not what Brasil (at least in a governmental sense) has been known for...Most
Brazillians I know laugh at the idea. I lived there for a couple of years, and
got a bit of a feel for people's opinions...
> army - war department arrowhead
As in 'Barring the way of progress'? What is the source of the porticullis
symbol for parliament?
> etc. all fairly straightforward.
Sounds good! What precedents are there for rendering the symbols onto other
color fields, and what might be resonable uses of differing field colors?
(Gov't branches, different commonwealth member states, military service v.
civilian or police use, etc...)
> so, the nac-as-a-whole symbol is the crown, and the following things
I like this alot!! What colours do you suggest for the backgrounds, crowns,
etc ( I'm not up on my heraldry....)?
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Jared E Noble wrote
> On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
being an englishman, i have an overdeveloped sense of honour :-)
> >what if the former usa (minus cal-tex) has been broken up into more
do
> >these areas, larger than a state, have their own symbols? do such
i was thinking about this. if eire was reabsorbed into the uk, 'greater
britain' would have a population of ~80 million. if the usa lost cal-tex
and a few intervening states for good measure, it might end up with a
population of ~160 million (2/3 of current). if the us could be split
into just two parts, the uk would be the dominant partner in the commonwealth
- a situation i believe the crown would aim for. how about north and
south, a division that pretty much exists already? 'no sah, ah am a virginian'
comes repeatedly to mind.
> >brazil - astral globe (off current flag) etc
true. we may have to go further - the whole point of the starmap on the
flag is that that was the configuration of the sky the night the emperor
abdicated and the republic was established. i think it's a sheer stroke of
genius as far as flag design goes, but it's also not very nac-friendly.
> >parliament - portcullis
it's the current symbol. it's on the back of the british 1 penny coin, amongst
other things. i am unsure of its origins, but it has been in use
since for ever - wars of the roses at least.
> Sounds good! What precedents are there for rendering the symbols onto
traditionally, britain has been pretty lax about the use of state symbols
by private individuals - it's not a crime to burn the flag here (afaik),
unlike in some backward totalitarian regimes i could mention ... :-)
i think the point of these symbols is that they could be used on pretty
much any background - pace heraldic constraints in formal situations -
according to whatever was handy. if you want to put a nac logo on the flag of
the betelguese trading scouts, then obviously it's going to have to be on a
green field. if you want it on the flag of oxford university, it's going to be
a dark blue field. etc.
Tom
> population of ~160 million (2/3 of current). if the us could be split
Well, speaking as a local, sentiment in my area of the country would happily
support any division that would classify us as seperate from all east of the
Mississippi and west of Nevada.
I've actually wondered about the state of things here in the
Midwest...specifically wondering if anyone's gamed out the UKs arrival on the
US continent and the resulting borders that would produce. My vision has Texas
(either during the instability leading up to recolonization, or soon after)
annexing most all of Oklahoma and possibly up into Kansas to capture oil
wells, food supplies, and create a nice buffer zone between the NAC and "God's
Country."
Furthermore, any instability that would allow foreign intervention would
doubtless see a resurgance in Native American nationalism. I could also
see Oklahoma becoming a quasi-independent "New Indian Nation" tied
economically and politically to Free Cal-Tex. Much like the relationship
between Bulgaria and Russia, perhaps?
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Sounds fair to me, but then I`m just an Ulster thug, what would I know?
:-)
> John M. Atkinson wrote:
> Thomas Anderson wrote:
> traditionally, britain has been pretty lax about the use of state
Like where? Granted we have some inhabitants who are of the opinion that if
free speech extends to burning the flag it should logically also extend to
burning flag burners...
<snip>
OK folks this one's hit the 'far enough away from GZG games' barrier. Wind it
up or take it to private email.
Thanks
Jon
> > I think I like the figures.... and I think one of the english panes
do
> these areas, larger than a state, have their own symbols? do such
Yeah, to some degree. Things arn't TOTALLY different between states, but you
DO experience a bit of culture shock when you travel through the U.S. I would
figure
that the south-east would have a flag that would incorporate elements of
the old Confederate flag (maybe the 'Stars and Bars' version).
In an early Dirtside campaign, my group played a Second Secession War scenario
set
that featured the "Southern Alliance" (an alliance of south-eastern
states which opposed the central government). The Alliance used the old
Confederate flag (white field with a red St.Andrew's Cross in the upper right
hand corner) during the war. The campaign ended with the Alliance joining the
Anglican Confederation
fairly intact (with its own government). I played the Brits/Union force,
and was fought to a draw during the Battle of Nashville (hey, those #$!#$ rebs
forced me into a city fight!;)