G'day guys,
During a rather, ahhh, dull meeting this afternoon the only highlight was a
talk about the potential strip mining of the deep seafloor (Australia's
interest only being that it would be competition to our land based mining).
The interesting bit with regard to GZGverse being that as this is a UN
governed area (under UNCLOS) the UN will get a percentage (or royalties or
something) of all the claims that go on down there. Now this lead me to
thinking about the situation in space, a few people have suggested that the
UNSC is funded via royalties on activities in space (whether asteroids,
other planets/moons etc). What the talk today indicated was that the
precedent for this already exists. I know the counter argument of "all have to
ratify for it to have power" has been used against this idea in the past, but
that too may be covered by this situation. For instance, the US
is not a signatory to UNCLOS, but it does abide by it anyway - at least
within this mining stuff - as by doing so it ensures other nations who
have signed respect its claims.
Anyway just a thought.
Beth
> At 4:33 PM +1000 7/19/01, Beth Fulton wrote:
Certainly the UN could gain additional funds this way, however, I wonder how
the UN would gain levies for staffing requirements if a major power decided
that it was not in its' best interest to do so. If say the US had pulled out
of the Korean War, it would likely not have worked so well. The same goes for
Britain. The lack of a delaying action by the Glosters at the Imnjin alone
would have changed the course of the war in short order.
Along with this is UN forces engaging other major national forces could have a
profound affect upon how the UN sustains itself. If say the NAC, NSL and FCT
all decided that a UN action against the NSL
promoted by the FSE/ESU power block was not going to happen. The
sheer number of personnel within the UN forces would likely cause serious
problems. Add to that other power blocks at odds with the UN. I suspect that
the UN of 2183 would be slow to decide how to act just like the UN of today is
due to the committee based organization.
An NAC/NSL/FCT task force with OU support and Israel on the periphery
would be far more easily used than one with less than nominally allied nations
involved. (Look at Greek and Turk forces in Korea for
example...)
G'day
> Along with this is UN forces engaging other major
Guess it all comes down to the different way each person sees the UNSC of the
GZGverse;)
Personally I see it as collecting funds in many ways, though a royalties
system would be a major one. While staffing would be primarily by "UNSC
citizens", mercs and smaller member nations who were working on commission (so
to speak) with the odd "big nation" contingent on loan.
But that's my view so I'll leave it there and try not to stir up the hornets
nest again;)
Cheers
Beth
> At 02:25 19/07/01 -0400, Ryan Montieth Gill wrote:
> Certainly the UN could gain additional funds this way, however, I
> decided that it was not in its' best interest to do so. If say the US
The
> same goes for Britain. The lack of a delaying action by the Glosters at
> the Imnjin alone would have changed the course of the war in short
> have a profound affect upon how the UN sustains itself. If say the NAC,
> NSL and FCT all decided that a UN action against the NSL promoted by
G'Day
Just some thoughts
I think in 2183 the UN is a nation state in it's own right. The fact the
UNSC has it's own miniatures for FT and SG and they are the flash new tech too
(hard suits and individual plasma weapons) lends credence to this
assumption. Sure we'd see multi-national fleets under the UN flag in the
GZG-verse, especially when it's a chance to put one over a rival. The
NAC supporting a UN sponsored 'East Timor' exercise (building a nation state
from scratch) at what once was a FSE colony would be one example.
The UN was as probably involved in the 'initial allocation' of
extra-solar
(and probably in the solar system as well) to help ensure 'fair play' and
ended up with some holdings itself. This function probably continues
throughout the time line and the existence of the UNSC means the UN can't just
be ignored (unlike the present UN).
Claim Jumper: "Sorry pal, we own this planet and it's system of moons. Take a
hike!" Colonist: "HEY? what do you mean? we've got the title?" Claim Jumper:
"So? how you going to chase us off, use harsh launguage?"
UNSC: "You there. This is the UNSC battlegroup 'Gaia', power down you fire
control and move aside. I won't repeat myself!"
Like other nation states the UN is also probably adding to it's holdings,
either to keep for itself or 'sell off'. After those UNSC survey cruisers
aren't just out there to get picked off by a passing alien speices:)
In the future, (the GZG-verse anyway the) the UN goes cap in hand to
no-one ;)
> >Along with this is UN forces engaging other major
FWIW: In our Cyberpunk RP campaign we have the UN as a major power doing much
the same thing. I really cannot see the UN *doing* it much any other way... I
spent a long time hunting up information on UN funding and the
various treaties and "non-binding resolutions" that they administer and
figured that all it would take is a group of very determined UN officers and
the right set of circumstances...
> At 11:24 AM +1000 7/20/01, Beth Fulton wrote:
Who are these UNSC citizens? People in the Core worlds? Did those nations with
sovereignty relinquish it to the UNSC
> At 11:33 AM +1000 7/20/01, Derek Fulton wrote:
Well, I don't know about you, but the UN multinational force in Korea
certainly wasn't ignored. I would envision that typically the UN enforces the
No Combat in the Core worlds and otherwise stays the hell out of other nations
business unless called in by more than one or two.
> Like other nation states the UN is also probably adding to it's
The mandate is nothing outside the Core Worlds. The timeline specifically
states that. How could they establish power projection bases outside the core
worlds when they aren't supposed to?
> In the future, (the GZG-verse anyway the) the UN goes cap in hand to
Then why the limit on power?
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:33:41 +1000 Derek Fulton
<derekfulton@bigpond.com> writes: <snip interesting view>
> In the future, (the GZG-verse anyway the) the UN goes cap in hand to
So, they are a cross between a major 'Nation' and a multi-national
Mega-Corporation? Just as prone (since they are run by human
'citizens')
to myopic and self-serving viewpoints? Just as prone to 'us versus
them'? Just as jingoistic and 'goal' or 'objective' oriented as the rest of
the 'nations' were/are/will always be? Just as likely to have policies
that are self-justifying (even wrapped in high-principles language
("Manifest destiny" anyone?) and 'the good of the whole" viewpoint?
So, Jon was right. There are no 'good guys' in the GZG-Universe!
"Shelter self-sealing process initiated"
"Go to Duck-Con 1!"
<grin>
Gracias,
> At 11:24 AM +1000 7/20/01, Beth Fulton wrote:
Well, you can get a UN passport *now* with the proper reasoning <g>
I figure that in the process of the UN becoming a mojor power what they did
was went head-hunting in the manner of: "Join the UN, get a passport, we
don't extradite, we pay really well, and give you all sorts of toys to play
with..."
Lot's of former mercs and corporates on the losing sides of conflicts, the
UN was ruthless in it's recruitment (no former war-criminals acceptable
for example) but rather quickly had a decent sized military and science core.
Haven't had a countries just "up and join" the UN though...
> At 09:56 20/07/01 -0400, you wrote:
Say the UNSC set up a outpost on a world to assist in further deep space
exploration, they picked this world out in a earlier survey so no one 'owns'
it yet. They outpost is set up it's a long term prospect and the world is a
nice place to be so the workers bring their families along, pretty soon you
have a community. Living on UN land, under UN law, gee? What do you know you?
'UN citizens':) Besides haven't you ever heard of immigration? If you're going
to live and work there permanently you may as well join in.
As for the sovereignty issue, it's given that the UNSC maintains the peace in
the core worlds. For this to work I imagine all the nations will have to give
up some degree sovereignty within the core. This may actually be a
contributing factor to the movement of the capitals off Earth (like the NAC at
Albion), in turn this would have also made the UNSC's task of "keeping the
peace in the core systems" much easier. Moreover the vast majority of
the planets/systems in the core and inner colonies will probably have
multiple nations inhabiting them, unlike the outer systems which belong to a
single nation. Issues of who gets what power and what compromises people are
willing to live with will be very different in the two cases.
At the risk of only fanning the flames on an issue I'd rather leave vague, let
me try two words: dual citizenship.
Been kinda nice seeing my name, repeatedly, in lights.
> At 09:59 20/07/01 -0400, Ryan wrote:
Korea was more a clash of ideologies, communists verse the 'free world' and
only happened because America was prepared to involve itself in the 'good
fight'. If America hadn't shown any (self-)interest the UN flagged force
would have been at best a non-event, at worst a disaster.
Take East Timor to name one example, the American government virtually
approved of Indonesia's invasion and annexation of that small country (in the
70's) because there were no competing American interests regardless of the
fact the invasion was a continuation of Indonesia's previous government's
policies when that country could have been considered
'pro-communist' because it was receiving military support for the
Soviet Union.
Please note the Australian government of the day and their successors followed
the American lead, so Australian's really have nothing to feel proud about
either.
This is the prime difference between the UN of reality and the UN of the
GZG-verse (IMHO) the UN has it's own military and so it is not subject
to the same degree to the whims of it's member states.
In order to keep the UNSC free from the interference of other nations, the
personal would need to be loyal to the UN <The 'myth' of the NAC officer
stealing the plans for the pulse torpedo springs to mind:) > and they and
their dependents would need somewhere safe to live.
> The mandate is nothing outside the Core Worlds. The timeline
The mandate is to maintain peace within the core but that doesn't mean the
UNSC stops at the core, once again the survey cruisers are evidence of that.
Smaller less capable nations could also sign assistance treaties with the UN,
just like they would with any other nation state.
Further more as a nation state the UN is perfectly within it's rights to
claim some of the worlds it is surveying for itself. This would allow the UN
to collect resources to build and maintain the UNSC, build bases to support
further exploration of space on humanity's behalf, and have somewhere for the
UN citizens to live.
> Then why the limit on power?
What limit are you referring to?
> Further more as a nation state the UN is perfectly within it's
UN hasn't been surveying, at least not new systems--individual nations
and private companies were doing that.
Of ocurse, the UN may have gone over some of the inner systems with a
fine-tooth comb after the first colonies settled.
> At 08:40 20/07/01 -0500, The_Beast wrote:
> At the risk of only fanning the flames on an issue I'd rather leave
Yes but would holders of dual citizenship be allowed to be to captain or
crew vessels which might end up confronting 'their other nation' causing a
possible conflict of interest?
> Been kinda nice seeing my name, repeatedly, in lights.
Remember thou art human:)
> At 10:26 20/07/01 -0400, Laserlight wrote:
Says who? Ok, it's not cannon but Beth's IAS was in there working with the UN
to survey new systems at the start.
Also, so what are the UNSC survey cruisers doing out on the rim, surveying
gaseous anomalies? < look out trek reference:) >
G'day Glenn,
> So, Jon was right. There are no 'good guys'
Yep;)
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:40:15 -0500 devans@uneb.edu writes:
That's only because they are using tracers.
Gracias,
> At 10:26 20/07/01 -0400, Laserlight wrote:
Derek asked:
> Says who? Ok, it's not canon but Beth's IAS was in there working
sez me--and I should know, it was my ships doing the surveying....
<vbg>
There are a number of worlds which are entirely or primarily occupied
by one power (eg the NAC). I can't see the UN doing that--if they had
control over who got which planet, I think they'd want to split each planet up
among multiple owners. Among other things, a) if there's a disaster on one
planet eg a plague of tribbles,
everyone is affected, so it's fair--and hopefully everyone will chip
in to find a cure; b) it may be more likely to cause small scale border
incidents, which
is good--maintains a need for the UN; but
c) it is less likely to have
ok, "b" is a pretty cold and calculating reason, but if it occurred to
me, no doubt it occurred to those blood-sucking leeches employed by
the Faceless One World Monolith....er, I mean, the UN bureaucrats.
> Also, so what are the UNSC survey cruisers doing out on the rim,
Ah, that was later. After the Major Powers, the IF, the PAU, etc had claimed
the closest worlds, the UN realized it needed territory and began doing
detailed curveys of the core systems (at least they *call*
it surveys, it's probably intelligence-related) plus the rim systems
(of course to get to the Rim you have to go through someone else's territory.
Too bad there are no space fish, the UN could just send "trawlers").
> At 12:22 PM +1000 7/21/01, Derek Fulton wrote:
> Korea was more a clash of ideologies, communists verse the 'free
Pretty much because with the exception of Great Britain, noone else is able to
project that much power so far away.
> In order to keep the UNSC free from the interference of other
Granted, but a UNSC taskforce assaulting a FSE base would have to never
happen. Not unless you want an entirely huge problem.
> Further more as a nation state the UN is perfectly within it's
Well, specifically the Mandate specifying the UNSC's area of operations and
Authority.
> At 12:47 PM +1000 7/21/01, Derek Fulton wrote:
Surveying stars and systems as a whole perhaps?
Need we remind you, "Space is big. Really really big. You may think its a long
trip down to the chemist, but...."
<004f01c11218$0456d880$89fb0e3f@pavilion>
X-Status: Unsent
<004f01c11218$0456d880$89fb0e3f@pavilion>
X-Status: Unsent
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:04:48 -0400 "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
writes: <snip>
> There are a number of worlds which are entirely or primarily occupied
OOOh, the great conspiracy in Space is alive and welll! <V_vbg>
And define cold blooded, sounds lile normal work conversations to me.
> Also, so what are the UNSC survey cruisers doing out on the rim,
Copy the Japanese (recently, speaking of trawlers) and call them 'training
exercises' and you can go anywhere.
> At 07:45 21/07/01 -0400, Ryan wrote:
Actually this is pretty much beside the point [ a red herring:)]
> [ Derek] The mandate is to maintain peace within the core but that
> happen. Not unless you want an entirely huge problem.
Never happen? never say never. Who would of thought that a year or so ago
there would be Russian troops confronting western troops in Kosovo? But
back to the GZG-verse it would depend on the situation wouldn't it?
> [ Derek ] What limit are you referring to?
> and Authority.
Yes the UN through the UNSC is responsible for the security of the Core and
the UN doesn't stop at the boundary of the core and so where you find the
UN you will find it's military/exploration body, the UNSC.
> At 07:46 21/07/01 -0400, Ryan wrote:
and laying claim to them if need be:)
"Yes professor Stevenson, that planet looks like just the right place for a
forward base to support further exploration of the area"
"I agree, I'll make my recommendations to Survey Command immediately."
> At 12:18 AM +1000 7/23/01, Derek Fulton wrote:
Hardly. France wasn't up to the job. Austrailia could have
contributed more material/men but they would have been bled dry
pretty fast. Holding the Pusan perimeter and the amphib landing counter attack
were pretty much the key to the entire war. Unless the US chipped in, South
Korea would have ceased to exist.
> Never happen? never say never. Who would of thought that a year or
Umm, lessee, since about 1945? Oh that cold war thing being over is just a
lull.
> Yes the UN through the UNSC is responsible for the security of the
But doing what? There were UN troops in Bosnia and Croatia for a good part of
those conflicts, did they do a damn bit of good, not really. Too bogged down
in committee to allow for realistic ROE.
> At 12:24 AM +1000 7/23/01, Derek Fulton wrote:
For the organization that is supposed to be uniting nations and arbitrating
conflicts, empire building seems a fast track to mass human conflict and a way
of making things easier for the Kra'Vak and Phalons to eliminate a competitor.
***
> Actually this is pretty much beside the point [ a red herring :) ]
It really has pretty much ALL gotten beside the point, hasn't it? Could we
call time again, except for private messages, of course? If you look back,
there's a fair amount of repetition without much resolution.
[quoted original message omitted]
Okay:
****Time OUT****
Return to your own corners and send direct e-mails to each other as the
situation warrants.
[And just when the "Great Tri-Universal Conspiracy" theory was about to
be exposed.... Drat!]
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:26:40 -0500 devans@uneb.edu writes:
> At 12:45 PM -0500 7/22/01, Noel Weer wrote:
Apples and Oranges.
But the States have a distinct balance of power vs the federal
government. The UN and the various nations are not a federal/state
form of organization. The UN doesn't have much say in how the NAC operates as
a Star Nation.
G'day,
> It really has pretty much ALL gotten
Damn that happened four messages slower than anticipated, lucky I didn't
bet Derek a chocolate cake on that one....
Who me a stirrer... never;)
Beth
> At 12:12 22/07/01 -0400, Ryan wrote:
Holding
> the Pusan perimeter and the amphib landing counter attack were pretty
Which is my point exactly, without US support the UN would not have been
able to intervene and this is difference between the UN of today and the UN
of the GZG-verse. The latter body has the means to back up it's
resolutions and that means is of course is the UNSC.
> [ Derek ] Never happen? never say never. Who would of thought that a
The Cold War is a different can of beans to a group of nations following
their own agendas butting heads in a peace keeping operation.
> [ Derek ] Yes the UN through the UNSC is responsible for the security
And the American government of the day helped set that mess up by torpedoing
the original European (British sponsored) attempt at a solution. This IS a
'red herring' Ryan:) and I am more than willing to discuss this point off
list.
> At 06:41 22/07/01 -0400, Ryan wrote:
How so?
> But the States have a distinct balance of power vs the federal
> Star Nation.
Wasn't the issue of state rights used a justification when the South ceded
from the Union and went to war with the North in the American Civil War?
This could be the next thing in the GZG-verse timeline. The Kravak drive
on the core allowed the UN to gain more control as national fleets were
brought under a unified UN command and tensions were created between the
core and the out lying colonies by the push to pull back the fleets to defend
the core leaving the rim exposed.
You can assume that humanity survives the First Xeno War (Hey, it's called the
FIRST Xeno war right? so that means that someone had be around to keep count
and fight in at least the second one?) but things won't be the same, will
they? Has the Xeno War driven humanity closer together? How will nations
states like the ESU, NAC, FSE, etc respond? Will they accept assimilation or
rebel? What of the colonies on the rim? Abandoned by the
core in th Xeno War, will they strike out on their own to insure their own
future? And course there's the SECOND Xeno War:) perhaps the Sa'Vasku will
attack the victor of the First War to maintain the 'balance' refered to in FB2
(page 21).
Who knows what will come to pass? But it makes for a good wargame;)