Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> There was one other thing I thought of also. A lot of military
Martial arts training has been using this "kinesic" or "kinesthetic" memory
now for centuries. Repetition, especially when you are too tired to think,
gets the response ingrained as a reflex.
There is some psychology here too - like driving a car - the first
time you do it, its all you can do since you are totally focused on it and it
ties you up (its all of the seven tasks your brain can handle at once). Later,
it becomes automatic, and really becomes just
one task, allowing your brain to do some other things - daydream,
drink coffee, listen to the radio, eat a sandwich, etc.
Then while you are racing along the fret, your mind, is
> thinking along a more "holistic approach" to the piece you are
Grouping of actions. The brain can handle up to seven things, and if they are
grouped, they become one 'thing'.
It's kind of interesting. I see a
> neural interface taking advantage of that type of learned muscle
Quite likely. The PA trooper would have certain actions ground into reflex.
> I think if you take advantage of muscle memory you are gaining two
Although you have to program the user.
> 3. Use of the muscles multiplies the range of responses and actions
That's what we need for games these days - a better interface than
keyboard and mouse to allow better control.
> The neural net is a great idea for anyone operating a piece of
Might let you have better opportunities to think in a tactical or strategic
fashion too.
> I also scammed a couple gross of small black ants and spiders. I took
Little black ants are cool.:)
Tom.
/************************************************
<<
<BTW I have a mail order connection for these ants and other little bugs
<(flies, spiders, etc) should anyone else need it.
<
<Los
sure..could u post it?
Mark
Tom, hope you don't mind but I'll also post this to the list since it's
pertinent.
> tom.anderson@altavista.net wrote:
> las you may have guessed, that email was supposed to be to the list.
I know I make that mistake a lot since I conduct lots of private email with
list members and I always forget what's going where!
> anyway, you have a good point about the disuse of muscles. i was
There was one other thing I thought of also. A lot of military training is
based on attaining "muscle memory" or unthinking action to cause a certain
function, as this has been found more effective than having to
think of stuff. Even in the non-military world. For instance I play
guitar. A lot of stuff, especially when playing leads, is based on
establishing muscle memory with your fingers. (i.e. learning the scales) Then
while you are racing along the fret, your mind, is thinking along a more
"holistic approach" to the piece you are performing, while you're fingers are
carrying out the instructions without being micro managed. This is hard to
explain, but lets say during a lead, I want a certain 3 second long riff,
containing a dozen notes and bends, to be followed by a different 4 second
riff, then end up with a 2 second thing. I don't actually think of every
little note. (Which could contains over 100 individual movements on each
finger! (Or maybe I feel the whole piece and that's as far as the thinking
goes) In any event, it is like your <ctrl> meta K example. I think of the
sounds and my fingers carry out each memorized little preprogrammed riff
without further conscious effort. It's kind of interesting. I see a neural
interface taking advantage of that type of learned muscle memory also. I mean,
that's how we walk run etc. etc. I have a weapons jam, I've recognized it
somewhere in my subconscious, my fingers perform the operation while my mind
is thinking of other things like assessing local threats, etc.
I think if you take advantage of muscle memory you are gaining two advantages:
1. It sure as hell makes programming the suit software a hell of a lot easier
and alleviates memory storage requirements. 2. It makes training easier since
you are not forcing people to unlearn muscle memory by disassociating willed
action from "doing or feeling". This speeds up training and puts more guys in
the field. IIRC I think you were planning on having your whole army in PA?
This speeds up training and candidate suitability as well as replacement of
casualties amongst other things. 3. Use of the muscles multiplies the range of
responses and actions that the suit can perform (simultaneously). It's
"unnatural" not to use the muscles, which makes training doubly long and
difficult. In particular in any situation where stress and danger are
presented, it is natural human instinct to revert back to baser responses and
instincts. That's what make muscular action such a plus.
Now, not that I haven't thought on your scenario for a bit. To make it work,
then you do have to go the nuerosuppressant route. But that's pretty advanced
chemistry, shutting off all muscle movement while keeping the brain and
sensation of balance, feeling, etc. 100% sharp. And while you are at it, you
will have to shut down the flow of adrenaline and other chemicals that are
sent to the body by the brain to get those muscles cranking. All those things
floating around could very well work against a non functioning body. But what
is that buying you? What advantage does that have? Might as well just knock
the guy out all together and have the suit work on it's own, using select
functions off the guys brain. Not turning off the muscles could lead to
injuries particularly in very stressful situations and at the very least will
distract the user.
But frankly I don't see any advantage whatsoever to not using the muscles to
assist in operation of the suit. That's the thing about all humans since the
beginning of time. Fight or flight. Combat remains a visceral event when it is
our hide at stake. The body and mind is are specifically designed to perform
at their best in this situation. It is feeling and doing, unconsciously, as
well as conscious action that makes us lethal. An effective suit amplifies
these actions instead of seeking to replace or circumnavigate them with it's
own.
The neural net is a great idea for anyone operating a piece of military
equipment It should strive to reduce our actions in combat back down to "stick
and rudder" or "seat of the pants", which is how humans were designed to
operate. Take away all the higher level distraction which comes from sensory
overload. There's your advantage.
> the trouble with the RPV is the comms link. this is why we have manned
I agree. And we've had this discussion on the net a while back pertaining to
fighters.
> altogether (although DS2 does specify that unjammable comms exist).
Particularly in the Mecha example, (Well I can only speak towards your more
popular type of mechawarrior or battletech universe examples) you are piloting
this thing rather than wearing it. You are using your hands and feet to
operate certain controls, like a pilot. The neural net is tapping into your
brain for several vital functions. One, it is using your internal sense of
balance to keep the mech upright, and it's also tapping into your head for
higher function thought like targetting, communications etc. etc.
Anyway, it's quite fascinating to banter about. I'll be addressing PA in my
story within a few chapters (as the main assault on Rot Hafen begins) so all
this discussion is coming very handy.
I also scammed a couple gross of small black ants and spiders. I took some GW
epic 40k space marines and am mounting painting and mounting them individually
as PA for some DS scenarios.
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> > 1. It sure as hell makes programming the suit software a hell of a
But you don't have to program the user to do stuff like Walk, run, get down,
Bend over, throw, grab, crawl, flip the bird, etc etc.
> > I also scammed a couple gross of small black ants and spiders. I
BTW I have a mail order connection for these ants and other little bugs
(flies, spiders, etc) should anyone else need it.
> ---- los wrote:
absolutely. just like riding a bike. i remember when i learned, my dad kept
shouting "ride from your navel, not your head!". this was during his buddhist
phase, but even so; at the time i thought he was bonkers but now i understand
what he means. when i cycle, i'm thinking "right, shall i go along by the
railway or through the woods?" and not "left leg push, right leg push, adjust
weight to the left".
> In
well, whether we use muscle memory or computer depends on the level of fusion
between man and suit. there's a book called 'hardwired' by (iirc) walter jon
williams, which everyone should read. go and read it now.
now! read it? ok, well in that almost everyone - soldiers, tankies,
pilots, computer operators, stockbrokers, the butcher the baker and the
candlestickmaker for all i know, are 'chipped': they have microchips
interfaced with the brain which add all sorts of skills, knowledge and even
'muscle memory'. at the end, a rebel airbase is raided by ground troops, and a
character notes from the way they move that they must be
'chipped for small-unit combat'. that is the only actual line i can
remember from the book! anyway, if you can do that (which you might not be
able to), then maybe when you suit up you switch off your regular muscle
memory (some sort of chemopsychoneurohypnolinguistic programming or summat)
and go over to suit mode. anyway, read the book, it's dead good.
> IIRC I think
yes. bwahahahahahah! surrender, fools! :-)
> Now, not that I haven't thought on your scenario for a bit. To make it
if you can't do it by neuroprogramming, that is.
> But that's
we have the technology! you only have to shut down the voluntary motor part of
the peripheral nervous system. that's a pretty specific target. for instance,
the central nervous system uses different neurotransmitters and receptors. i'm
not sure about avoiding the autonomous PNS (sphincters, lungs, etc), but you
should be able to make molecules which only affect the target cells. this is
probably doable by 2050, if not sooner.
> And while you are at it, you will have to shut down the flow of
[biology and classical languages interlude]
actually, adrenaline is produced by the adrenal glands, which sit atop the
kidneys ('ad' being a latin prefix which i think means 'above' and 'renal'
meaning 'kidney'; adrenaline is also called 'epinephrine', from
similar words in greek; ah, the benefits of a classical education! :-),
which are controlled by another hormone from the brain, whose name i forget.
this hormone is present in smaller quantities, so it would be easier to stop.
a plastic implant in the jugular vein coated with
enzymes/antibodies to neutralise the hormone might do it. or we could
just switch off the neurosecretory fibres in the pituitary which produce it.
or, since the adrenaline surge is mediated by a sudden rush in gene
transcription, somehow specifically block the adrenaline gene, using antisense
technology or suchlike.
turning off the muscles is probably a bad idea, but we do not need to drive
the suit off them. if the user's muscles can be run by the suit computer, then
that might help (although it does seem a bit daft). the user would then have
the sleep option.
> It is
the unconscious lives in the brain; it would still be at work in PA.
> An effective suit amplifies these actions instead of seeking
only the brain directs the body, and in my model it directs the suit
equally. the muscles or glands do not contribute to decision-making.
well, not beyond 'i'm getting tired', which isn't much use in PA
(altough compatible feedback from the damage-control subsystem might be
rather good), and 'aaargh! panic!' which is not that much use to a sentient
being anyway.
> The neural net is a great idea for anyone operating a piece of
i cannot disagree more. the human being is an unrivalled thinking machine, and
will be so for a long time (i count aliens as human). i
don't think Jon Postel or Tim Berners-Lee used the seats of their
trousers much in developing the internet and web. i don't think Monty or
Eisenhower, or Beatty or Nimitz, used theirs when they won their campaigns.
the neural net, a simple simalcrum at best but with immense
computing speed behind it, is used to take over some of the low-level,
gut-instinct, trouser-seat stuff.
> I also scammed a couple gross of small black ants and spiders.
hang on, a gross is a dozen dozens, right? you have 288 small black
arthropods? as it says in the GenLeg BBV rules, "if you have this many
minatures on the table you need to seek professional help."!
> I took
<willing to even admit that gw exists> i think the terminators look much
better. biig suit!
</willing to even admit that gw exists>
> tom.anderson@altavista.net wrote:
> only actual line i can remember from the book! anyway, if you can do
I'll look for it. Right now I'm churning through an EXCELLENT newly published
book called the "The Brandenburgers: Global Missions," by Franz Kurowski. It's
about german special forces in WW2. It's absolutely amazing some of the stuff
they pulled off.
> > But that's
> > The neural net is a great idea for anyone operating a piece of
You are using all the wrong examples. Talk to me about Micheal Wittman, Audie
Murphy, Dick Meadows, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain,
Jackevencko or John Basilone, not these guys you site that don't get within 10
or 100 miles of an exploding shell. We are talking about fighting and dying
here, FEAR and Panic competition and hate all happening at the same time,
Information overload, think fast and do faster. We're talking the guy that's
going into to clear a building, first in the door, not somone who exist in a
sterile lab environment dreaming up theoretical solution to global netwroking
problems. The baser instincts of man. You want to hook the CinC up to some
brain scrambler, fine. He's not required to deal with split second reactions
to immediate threats, He is, for all intents and purposes, playing chess in an
office somewhere. Though even at the level you are talking about that level of
command is more about interpersonal networking and staff management then
combat leadership.
Just take fear for instance. Management of this emotion is a primary
requirement for success in combat. Lest you say we will isolate that emotion
and remove it, absence of fear is alao a sure sign that you will be killing
yourslef and otehrs as soon as the shit hits the fan. This one emotion is a
double edged sword, vital to the success of one man fighting another.
Seriously though, you still haven't shown me why this is at all superior to
standard Power Armor. What does short circuiting 90% of teh human body buy you
over a "regular" (We're talking SF here so i use the term
loosely <g>) power armor kit? To me it's anti-intuitive.
> hang on, a gross is a dozen dozens, right? you have 288 small black
I already know that. But yeah, a gross is 144. I'm thinking SST so if you wnat
to do a scenario like that then you need Bugs! Mister Rico! Millions of them.
(well a few gross)
Shit I'd love to speak on this some more but my kinds crying upstairs. Will
have to continue later.
Have any of you heard about Orlon? Bye Stephen
Ok, I'll bite...No.
Enlightenment follows?
I guess we're STILL waiting,so I'll start the ball rolling with what I know so
far...
Synthetic polymer cloth, often used in sweaters. Hard to imagine as useful as
PA.
Song group from 60's who wore the above sweaters. Lilting melodies not
particularly useful as mood music.
REALLY stupid looking Wood Elf general from Games Workshop. No further
comment.
The_Beast
Noah Doyle <nvdoyle@midlink.com> on 09/30/98 11:28:07 PM
Please respond to FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
To: "'FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk'" <FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk>
cc: (bcc: Doug Evans/CSN/UNEBR)
Subject: RE: erm... power armour
Ok, I'll bite...No.
Enlightenment follows?
Noah
[quoted original message omitted]
In a message dated 98-10-01 00:39:55 EDT, you write:
<< Enlightenment follows? >> Its a material that is in the news, it is a
synthetic "mussle," just the thing for power armour, just some thing I think
that you would like to know about. My $.02 Bye Stephen P.S. They (the media
source) said that Power Armor would be hear in 7 to 10 years.
Boy, I hope it'll be here soon - a Jane's Defense Weekly pic several
years
ago, of a (UK) Royal Marine in some sort of half-operational mockup of
powered armor, toting an MG version of their bullpup got me all hot &
bothered. Haven't heard diddly since.
Noah
[quoted original message omitted]
In a message dated 98-10-02 01:24:22 EDT, you write:
<< Boy, I hope it'll be here soon - a Jane's Defense Weekly pic several
years
ago, of a (UK) Royal Marine in some sort of half-operational mockup of
powered armor, toting an MG version of their bullpup got me all hot &
bothered. Haven't heard diddly since. >> Just wieght. I think that the "track"
that the weapons designers are going with power armour is to create a mussle
enhancement suit, alowing a marine to carry more equipment, kind of like the
PALs from BTech. My $.02 Bye Stephen