OK, I realize that I'm replying to several people here, but bear with me as I
just caught this thread.
> > > >But at any rate, I soon discovered that "gifted" is
Dunno what teachers you're dealing with. Speaking for the ones that I work
with, "gifted" means that you simply need to challenge that student more. Of
course, some of the most gifted students I've seen have also been some of the
laziest.
> > >
Hmm, what about those of us who *are* teachers? I would strongly encourage you
to put your money where your mouth is. See how much fun it is to jump through
the hoops to become a teacher. See what a blast it is when you realize that
the kiddies are *not* going to all just sit at your feet and drink in your
every word just because you're giving it to them.
> > Try and reform the system from inside? I say burn the
Whew! Sure glad that someone has all the answers! In all seriousness, how did
you form this opinion? What evidence have you examined that led you to believe
that led you to believe that "burning down the system" was necessary and
proper? I've had ten years of teaching experience in the public school system
to help me formulate my opinions; do you have similar experience, or are you
reacting to all of that crap that you hear on the news and being spewed out of
the mouths of politicians? Precisely which aspects of the school system are
the most horrendous to you, and whom do you see as being responsible for all
of the screwups? While I don't necessarily disagree with the statement about
ed. system=childcare, I can't agree that the school system is "past reform".
The problem is that there's been *too* damned much reform. Get off my back,
let me teach, and let me discipline without having the ACLU and courts
breathing down my neck, and I'll do just fine, thanks.
> The initial premise needs to have a "You get what you
Hmm, I'm not sure if I should take offense at the above or not, since your
statement seems to suggest that those of us who are teaching right now are not
worth more than we are currently paid. However, I'll err on the side of
caution and assume that's not what you meant. I would like to point out that
intelligence alone does not make a teacher. I'll continue that comment below.
As for the money aspect, I'd certainly like to make more, and I think I'm
worth more. But I also believe in what I'm doing, and I think it does make a
difference. Money is nice, but there's also "emotional income", or
satisfaction in what you're doing. For most teachers (the top ones at least)
that is at least as important as the money, if not moreso.
> Look at Los Alamos, the people there believe in education
Certainly not. However, as I said above, intelligence alone (or educational
level) doesn't necessarily guarantee a good teacher. I've known plenty of PhDs
who weren't worth a damn in the classroom, just as I've known plenty of people
with only a h.s. education (or less) who could teach what they know to anyone.
As for your anecdote about Los Alamos, you've hit on something else there.
Given the high educational level of the parents of those students, it stands
to reason that the students will be more motivated to learn (there are, of
course, exceptions, but there is a *very* strong correlation between parental
ed. level and student achievement). I would hazard a(n) (educated:) guess that
has more to do with the level of education in Los Alamos than the fact that
they hire PhDs to teach at the high school. I suppose I could go on in this
message, but I'm afraid it would turn into a ramble (if it has not done so
already). My intent here is not to flame, so if the message came off that way
I do apologize, but should any of you wish to take issue with anything I've
said, please feel free to do so (as I'm sure you will), but I'd appreciate it
if you'd preface it by sharing what (if any) experience and background you've
had from the *inside* of the educational establishment other than as a
student. In all of the time I've been on this list, I've been more than
willing to defer to experts in other fields and at least assume that they know
what they're talking about, and would appreciate the same consideration for my
chosen field.
> Mark Reindl wrote:
> > > > >But at any rate, I soon discovered that "gifted" is
Lucky for your students. Not all of us as STUDENTS had those kinds of
teachers. Many of mine were dedicated and caring, and a few truly were
excellent and had the above attitude, but most chose to brush past any student
who didn't "fit in."
> Of course, some of the most gifted students I've seen have also
Some. I struggled all through school, and I'm sure some of my teachers thought
I was lazy, but I wasn't. It was more a problem with how they expected me to
learn, and how my brain wanted to learn, and the vast gulf between the two.
While in Grade school in Idaho, I was tested and they determined I had a high
IQ but a learning disability. They didn't bother to figure out what that LD
was, or to do anyhting about it except to send me to a special room a couple
hours a week where they lumped all the "Gifted" and "challenged" kids together
with one very caring but overworked teacher.
Mind you, this is more a reflection on the administration system than on
teachers, but that doesn't change just how useless it was to me.
> > > >
Actually, that's exactly what I'm in school studying to do, thanks. As for
those of us who ARE teachers, my hat is off to you. My comment was made as
somewone who DOES want to put his money where his mouth is, and is actively
pursuing that end. But it would have been too much trouble to find that out
before you merely made a snide remark, wouldn't it have been?
See what a blast it is
> when you realize that the kiddies are *not* going to all just sit at
Wow. That's SUCH an accurate description of how I think things are -
I'm totally delusional, yes. Thanks for showing me the light.
> My intent here is not to flame, so if the
Ah, yes. Because students' experiences are not valid. I know that's not what
you really mean, but that's exactly the perceived attitude that many of us,
especially those of us who were viewed as "Special cases," encountered
in school. Actually, my issue is not with your feelings/ideas about
education. However, when you assumed that I was just spouting off and not
backing up my opinion with a course of action, THAT I DID take issue with.
In all of the time
> I've been on this list, I've been more than willing to defer to experts
A valid point. I'd also like to point out, however, that "Teacher" is as
broad a term as "scientist." Bearing in mind that the range of skills
and talents required to teach are as broad as the spectrum of students, their
ages, and the subkects taught, is it possible that while you are probably an
excellent teacher, there might just be certain levels of teaching and
development you are not AS well-versed in, and is it therefore possible
that the experiences of a student at that level, particularly an observant
one, might be just as valid as your own views? Just a thought.
3B^2
> Brian Bilderback wrote:
> Mark Reindl wrote:
As do some of my colleagues. Speaking only for myself, I think it's important
to try to reach each student. However, I'm enough of a realist to know that
it's virtually impossible to do so for every single one.
> >Of course, some of the most gifted students I've seen have also
No it doesn't. But if a teacher is at all cognizant of what's happening in the
classroom, he/she ought to be able to pick up on that fact. I can
definitely tell the difference between someone who's lazy and someone who
struggles, mainly due to the fact that I use a variety of methods to teach my
classes.
> > > > >
As for
> those of us who ARE teachers, my hat is off to you. My comment was
It wasn't a snide remark at all, sorry if you took it that way. It was an
attempt to point out to those who were commenting on this thread that perhaps
they ought to consider the possibility that some in the audience might
actually belong to the group upon which they wished to heap their ire. And, if
you'll notice, I acknowledged that I might not have all of the information on
all of you, and did indeed request that, so I fail to see the need for either
you or John (who emailed me privately) to take me to task for that. Might I
suggest that you read the entire post in the future, then comment on it?
> Wow. That's SUCH an accurate description of how I think things are -
Now *that* is a snide comment. The reason I stated it that way is because many
people going into teaching, myself included, tend to have that view or one
similar to it prior to going into the field. It was (and still is to some
extent) a bothersome fact that no matter what I do, how I teach, how hard I
work, or how I interact with the kids, some are going to slip through the
cracks. It pisses me off to see so much potential go down the drain, but it's
going to happen no matter what. I hope you're ready to deal with that, but
I'll comment more on that below.
> Ah, yes. Because students' experiences are not valid. I know that's
encountered
> in school. Actually, my issue is not with your feelings/ideas about
Ah, no. Nowhere did I state that an opinion formed as a student was not valid.
In fact, the whole frigging reason I asked if you had any experience other
than as a student was to ascertain if anyone was either in or going into the
field of teaching. I've got no problem admitting when I'm wrong, but I'm
afraid that you
jumped the gun on that one. I made no assumptions about anyone, I
thought I made that clear.
> A valid point. I'd also like to point out, however, that "Teacher" is
Well, I'm coming from the perspective of someone who has been (and still is) a
student, and is a teacher. As a bit of background, I've been teaching now for
ten years, mostly at the high school level, although I've got several years of
middle school experience as well. I've taught everything from a
low-level math
class up to and including (in my current assignment) Advanced Placement US
History. I've been involved in extracurricular activities including coaching
sports (basketball, although not very well!), Academic Decathlon, Mock Trial,
and JSA. In addition, I am also currently working on a Masters Degree in
Educational Technology. My goal here isn't to bust anyone's chops, but to
explain the reality of teaching and education. I am, quite frankly, tired of
all of the potshots that people have taken at education within the past few
years in particular. A student's observations are no less valid *for that
student* than my own are for me; in that respect they are equal. However,
students, no matter how intelligent, observant, and mature, still lack some
fundamental understanding of the system because they are not exposed to it
fully. They don't (can't and shouldn't necessarily) know everything that goes
on, so how can they make reasoned judgements about what is right and wrong
beyond their classroom? In that case, I'll refer you to my previous statement
about expertise. I realize I'm probably not being too clear here, so I'll try
to put it into military terms (to clarify for myself if nothing else). It's
like the difference between a recruit and a combat veteran. You can train that
recruit, teach him how to survive in combat and how to use his weapon, but you
can't make him understand what combat is like; the only thing that will
suffice for that is combat. And when it starts, they find out that 90% of
their training is bullshit. So what you get many times are recruits who strut
around talking about how they're going to kick everyone's ass once the
shooting starts, but end up being the ones at the bottom of the foxhole
screaming for mama once it does. That's the best analogy I can think of, and I
can only say that it comes from experience. You're working towards becoming a
teacher? Kudos to you as well. I am curious since you're working for your
Masters if you intend on teaching at the secondary level, or community
college. Regardless, what you will find is that just like that recruit, much
of what you're learning and thinking right now will turn out to be next to
useless in a classroom. Much of what you remember as a student will simply not
apply because you'll be in a different role in that school. And finally, if
you haven't been told this
before, approximately 1/2 of the people who enter the teaching
profession leave within five years due to the stress and requirements placed
upon them. I went through the program ten years ago with 25 other people, and
can count on one had the number that I know for sure are still teaching. You
can take or leave what I've said, and I suspect you may do more of the latter,
which doesn't bother me. Should you decide to respond to this, I look forward
to it. But before you do, realize two things. First, I was in no way, shape,
or form trying to pick on anyone, yourself included, for having opinions. Nor
did I make any assumptions about anyone, as I specifically asked about
background in my previous message. And second, always be willing to learn and
challenge your own assumptions, whether you learn from students,
administrators, parents, or college instructors. As I said, I've been doing
this for ten years, and had that second lesson reiterated to me rather
strongly just this last week at school. Finally, I would look forward to
revisiting this discussion with you after you've had a few years of teaching
under your belt.
If y'all are continuing this thread, could you do so offlist?
From - Mon Apr 01 10:01:04 2002
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Message-ID: <001001c1d209$577664c0$3ff2fea9@webone.com.au>
From: "Alan and Carmel Brain" <aebrain@webone.com.au>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <3c9a7d00.629a.0@webone.com.au>
<20020322102740.GB10844@firedrake.org>
Subject: Re: Recon, Scouts and Battle Phases
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:23:30 +1100
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From: "Roger Burton West" <roger@firedrake.org>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Recon, Scouts and Battle Phases
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:38:24AM +1000, Alan E Brain wrote:
Yes, it's just that I was surprised that he fell for it. Had he continued on
regardless, sure he would have taken losses, but nowhere near as many as he
did by stopping in a fire sack. And he certainly would have done
more damage by over-running the first of 3 lines of defence.
As it was, the 3rd line was able to manouver as an impromtu reserve, and
the second able to go into hasty-attack mode sooner than I'd believed
possible.
From - Mon Apr 01 10:01:05 2002
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Message-ID: <001601c1d209$a83a0d80$3ff2fea9@webone.com.au>
From: "Alan and Carmel Brain" <aebrain@webone.com.au>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <NEBBKHJJGLHNIADBJKHLKECLCNAA.rmakowsky@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Scouts.....
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:25:45 +1100
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From: "Bob Makowsky" <rmakowsky@yahoo.com>
> Actually I would put that down to a leadership and motivation problem,
Not forgetting their mission might be to a) Avoid contact b) Get as much
information as possible, bearing in mind a)
If the enemy is emplaced around the bridge in question, infiltrating a force
to measure the size of the trestle is trcky in broad daylight, especially if
you only have 20 minutes to be out of the area.
From - Mon Apr 01 10:01:09 2002
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From: "Alan and Carmel Brain" <aebrain@webone.com.au>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <E83E983C3EC9DD45A40B24C4BA3A60756AEA35@col1smx01.USE.AD.DLA.MIL>
<1016809619.3c9b4893b4f9e@www.fysh.org>
Subject: Re: FTL in SciFi was RE:
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:34:38 +1100
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From: "Katie Lauren Lucas" <katie@fysh.org>
> "A Fire Upon the Deep" is really, really good. Recommend that one.
Second that. Third and fourth it to. If you haven't read it, I envy you,
because you've got a treat in store. I put it up there with "A Canticle for
Leibowitz".
From - Mon Apr 01 10:01:11 2002
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From: "Brian Bilderback" <bbilderback@hotmail.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: "Education" System, was Re: [SG] HAMR
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:37:57 -0800
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> Mark Reindl wrote:
> As do some of my colleagues. Speaking only for myself, I think it's
Again, I envy YOUR students. I would still, however, suggest you are probably
above average amongst your colleagues if that is truly your attitude.
> However, I'm enough of a realist to know that
Sadly, it should be a little more feasible, but I understand that teachers
aren't given the manpower or resources necessary. You do what you can, at
least the good ones do, that's all we can ask.
> > Mind you, this is more a reflection on the administration system
Again, further proof you're probably exceptional.
> It wasn't a snide remark at all, sorry if you took it that way. It was
Sorry I took it wrong, I took it to mean you simply thought I was bagging on
education without intending to do anything about what I believed.
> Now *that* is a snide comment.
Yes, it was. I apologize, my dander was up by then.
The reason I stated it that way is because many
> people going into teaching, myself included, tend to have that view or
I may have a passion to become a teacher, but I have known enough personally
outside school and observed enough to realize that I've got my work cut out
for me. But after what I went through, if I can help one kid not have to go
through the same thing, I'll be satisfied.
It was (and still is to some
> extent) a bothersome fact that no matter what I do, how I teach, how
We're never ready for most of the heavy crap life flings our way. If complete
preparedness were a prerequisite, we'd be extinct, because no one would become
a parent, a teacher, a politician, a religious leader, a
soldier.....
> Ah, no. Nowhere did I state that an opinion formed as a student was
As I said, I knew that was not YOUR intended meaning, but it is sadly a
perception that occurs.
> In fact, the whole frigging reason I asked if you had any experience
> field of
> that you
Probably. Again, my apologies.
I made no assumptions about anyone, I thought I
> made that clear.
Perhaps you did. Sorry if I missed it.
> Well, I'm coming from the perspective of someone who has been (and
A worthy record, you have my respect. Let me give you some of my background. I
may not be experienced at teaching, but at life, I'm getting
at least to the second semester. ;-)
I struggled all through school. Never earned decent grades, except for one
year in a private school. After high school, I went to a small college in
the midwest, where I managed ater 2 1/2 years to get myself kicked out
for
bad grades. I proceeded to spend 5 years in dead-end jobs, until I got
tired of my life and went back to school. Returning to CC, I've managed to
maintain a 3.5+ gpa, staying consistently on the Dean's List.
Unfortunately, I don't have the economic clout to attend full time, I have to
work and take classes on the side as I can. I probably won't finish my
school 'till I'm almost 40. So I'm not starry-eyed kid. I may not know
how tough teaching is yet, but I do know how tough being an uneducated worker
is, and I'm sure as hell not staying where I am.
They don't (can't and shouldn't necessarily) know everything that goes
> on, so how can they make reasoned judgements about what is right and
They can't, but they sure as hell can make a fairly accurate judgement about
the effect things have on them, and that is where I was coming from. Let me
use your following example to explain where *I* was coming from:
In that case, I'll refer you to my previous statement
> about expertise. I realize I'm probably not being too clear here, so
> It's
Actually, most of my comments at first were not on how I as a future teacher
expect things to be, but how I as a former struggling student with special
needs remember them and want to change them. In your military example,
I
was speaking neither as rewcruit nor veteral SOLDIER, but as the COB -
the kid who year after year had everyone tell him how bright he was, how good
he SHOULD be, but how disappointed they were in him, until it took me years to
figure out I wasn't a worthless piece of shit just because I didn't perform up
to others' expectation. No matter how weary the veteran is, no matter how good
he is, he's still the armed soldier, and cannot understand what the civilian
caught in the crossfire feels like.
You're working towards becoming a teacher? Kudos to you
> as well. I am curious since you're working for your Masters if you
That I am still working out in my own head and heart.
Should you decide to respond to this, I look forward to it. But before you
> do, realize two things. First, I was in no way, shape, or form trying
You've made this clear and I apologize for my earlier reaction.
And second, always be willing to learn and challenge your own
> assumptions, whether you learn from students, administrators, parents,
As would I.
3B^2
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From: "Brian Bilderback" <bbilderback@hotmail.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: "Education" System, was Re: [SG] HAMR
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> From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
Sorry, I should have. But I did owe Mark an on-list apology.
3B^2
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References:
<000001c1d0ef$46a4c850$4200a8c0@GARIBALDI><008001c1d185$b48d4fe0$3ff2fea
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Subject: Re: We Were Soldiers
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:43:56 +1100
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From: "Flak Magnet" <flakmagnet72@yahoo.com>
> He also earned three silver stars while serving over there.
In Australia or the UK, they tend not to be so free as the US with medals. In
Vietnam, the Bronze Star in particular was awarded with
very little excuse - a unit would be allocated X of em every month,
even if in garrison duty.
But *THREE* Silver Stars? In WW2? And for an artilleryman?
I have a lot of respect for anyone who fought to make the world we live in in
WW2. But 3 silver stars... that's very impressive.
> He was
Good on you. And thanks for telling me about him.
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Subject: Re: satchel charges and scouting
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From: "Tomb" <tomb@dreammechanics.com>
> Interesting Story:
> So I picked a hill in the middle of the valley that was in a blocking
That's exactly what I did too. Almost - my positions were 250 metres
back, but otherwise exactly the same. Defending a series of 3 parallel wooded
ridges.
> I then
Whereas I dismounted the infantry just before the force got to the ridgeline.
Dragons are truly crappy weapons, but the infantry in the trees did
*not*
draw attention - the mixed smoke and HE from the FPF, and the mines,
seemed to distract the enemy sufficiently so they were able to use the enemy
as target practice.
> The irony was at the time I was a reserve infantry private. I was
Surprises me not at all.
> Double blind is a whole other type of game and requires you to keep
Ah but in a *real* double-blind, you spend half your time figuring out
where your own guys are. Requires multiple players, but you really see the
value of having axes of advance from one unmistakeable landmark to another.