DSII & SGII: Looking for info on Jerry Pournelle's Saurons

I have a friend that wants to create a Sauron army based on Jerry Pournelle's
(?) books like Mote in God's Eye. What other books are the Sauron's in? I've
searched the internet for "Saurons" & only found 1 reference to them. Does
anyone have suggestions how to model their forces in DSII & SGII?

Thanks,

Date sent:  13-JUN-1996 15:33:25

> I have a friend that wants to create a Sauron army based on Jerry

> Sauron's in? I've searched the internet for "Saurons" & only found 1

> Thanks,

I can't remember any 'Saurons' in 'Mote in God's Eye'. In fact I pretty sure
that the Humans and Moties were the only two races (unless the Saurons is
another name for the moties). There is a sequel, the Mote around Murchuson's
Eye. (By Niven and Pournelle, as was the original)

It's a while since I last looked at these two, so sorry if I've got anything
wrong.

And I've NEVER seen a mini that even remotely resembles a Motie.

> On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Adam Delafield wrote:

> Date sent: 13-JUN-1996 15:33:25

> >reference to them. Does anyone have suggestions how to model their
As best as I remember the Saurons are a race of genetically enhanced supermen
(groan) mentioned in the second book. I think the reference is

to the racing acht (Freddie's?). I think the engineer on the yacht was a
Sauron.

Adam Delafield wrote at sometime in the past:
> >I have a friend that wants to create a Sauron army based on Jerry

> >reference to them. Does anyone have suggestions how to model their

The Mote around Murchuson's Eye? I wasn't aware that there was another book
like that; I thought the sequel was called "The Gripping Hand", and that

was it.

But, you're right, there are no Saurons in "Mote in God's Eye". In fact, if I
remember correctly, the both take place in the same Universe, but "Mote"
happens about 500 years after the Saurons were wiped out, but after they
managed to cause the collapse of the First Empire of Man. (Well, I

think the time line is close, at any rate.)

Saurons figure promminently in the "War World" series that Jerry Pournelle
created and other authors did writing for. Actually, I think that's it.

All the other Pournelle books I can think of take place either before the
Sauron War (e.g. Falkenberg's Legion, Here Come the Spartans, etc.) or
afterwards ("Mote" series.)

> And I've NEVER seen a mini that even remotely resembles a Motie.

*groan*  (8-)

J.

Nils,

> What other books are the

The Sauron appear in the War World anthologies, including Invasion, Sauron
Dominion, Death's Head Rebellion, CoDominium: Revolt on War World, and maybe
others that I can't recall off the top of my head, and also in the War World
novels Blood Feuds and Blood Vengeance. Pournelle is the editor of the
anthologies and I think he's a coauthor of the novels. If you're looking for
stories that show Sauron capabilities at the height of their power, there are
a few that are well worth reading in the anthologies. Most of the stories,
however, deal with the Sauron on Haven after the collapse of interstellar
civilization so the tech level is somewhat low - perhaps not what you're
looking for in a DS2 conversion.

> I have a friend that wants to create a Sauron army based on Jerry

> Thanks,

> I can't remember any 'Saurons' in 'Mote in God's Eye'. In fact I

The Saurons were the result of a specialized breeding program that was an
attempt at making a genetically advance human. I believe this was attempted on
a planetary scale. The never appeared in the story directly, there were only
refered to as a historical note.

> Date sent: 13-JUN-1996 15:33:25

Ah, we greybeards perhaps regret that we didn't buy any Asgard Miniatures
"Trimotes" (which were 25mm Moties) when we had the chance...

I wonder if the moulds survive?

Rob

> Jerry Han wrote:

> The Mote around Murchuson's Eye? I wasn't aware that there was another

Yeah, the sequel was called "The Gripping Hand."

> But, you're right, there are no Saurons in "Mote in God's Eye". In

"Mote" takes place during the Second Empire of Man, long after the end of the
Sauron Wars (I don't know the number of years though). There *is* a character
in the book of mixed Sauron and Havener stock
.
 The Sauron survivors from the war w/ the First Empire set up shop on
Haven and tried to rebuild their power during the ensuing collapse of
interstellar civilization. The end result of this was the interbreeding of the
Sauron with
the humans on Haven (already hardy people - Haven's not a nice place) so
the
Haveners during the time of "Mote" are genetically superior human/Sauron
hybrids.

Aren't the Saurons some sort of black Super-men from a galactic war who
get trapped on a planet with a bunch of primitive colonists? I seem to
remember a dual
between bi-planes &
atmospheric fighters where the bi-plane 'shoots' down the fighter by
flying in the air intake & coming out as a pink cloud.

I think its in a Series of books called 'WarWorld' or something very similar,
basically the
whole set up is contrived to allow lots & lots of blood-shed & weird
battles - Sauron Space
Marines vs. Apaches etc.

Didn't david Drake & Jerry Pournelle,have something to do with it? It may have
been one of those collaboration things between Drake & Pournelle. I think it
was set in Pournelles 'Prince Of Sparta' universe which may not be the same as
the Pournelle & Niven 'Motie' one. But contained Drakes level of violence.

        Tim

Its all coming back to me the 'Saurons' have a symbol the 'Flaming Eye' and do
you know why? Yes its from Tolkein in that this was the name for the Dark Lord
Sauron whoose symbol was a flaming eye and whoose name these boys have ripped
off. Can you spell ZARDOZ.

There you are Adam a nice SF / fantasy tie in for next months Tolkien
project <g>. By the
way it seems the relatives of J.R.R have copyright/trademarks on every
name in the books.

        Tim

> I have a friend that wants to create a Sauron army based on Jerry

The Saurons were only mentioned in passing in _Mote_ - they were the
supermen that had been the bad guys (well, they lost!) in the earlier war.

However, the Saurons are covered much more thoroughly in the War World
collections (each book having several short stories). At least one short story
per collection features Saurons. Search for "War World".

They are human - basically Homo Superior.  Genetically selected and
enhanced, they have superior senses, reflexes, musculature, etc. Some of them
were called cyborgs, and I think they were actually mechanically enhanced.

In DS or SG, they would probably have higher morale, maybe be able to take an
extra action when activated, be harder to kill, etc. They would

have smaller forces, the reason they lost the war was shear manpower issues.

To me, I don't see the point. I guess you could simplify by just using elite
troops, but what's the fun here?

Adam Delafield:
> Nils

> >reference to them. Does anyone have suggestions how to model their

        I think there _was_ a Sauron native in MiGE -- I seem to
remember one of the middies being from Sauron. The planet's history was
brought up during the formal dinner on the McArthur and it caused an extremely
uncomfortable silence.

Sorry I can't do any better than that; I'll try to put together a "best guess"
at Sauron forces for SGII.

Jerry Han:
> Adam Delafield wrote at sometime in the past:

        I think you're talking about the same book -- _The Gripping
Hand_ was the US title.

In a message dated 96-06-13 13:47:08 EDT, you write:

<< To me, I don't see the point. I guess you could simplify by just using
elite troops, but what's the fun here?
> [quoted text omitted]

IMHO, most of the bells and whistles of an army like the Sauron Supermen would
be handled in the TO&E rather than by makeing special rules, in the books they
WERE pretty nasty, but weren't completely invulnerable. I'd say they were a
very small, very well equipped elite force but (at least on the DS2 scale)
nothing TOO special, their tru advantage lies outside the game scope. They can
survive with natural ease in harsh environments, and have great endurance, so
in SG2, maybe they would be really hard to get to detrimental fatigue levels.
At SG2 scale is where you'd need some extra rules, but I haven't given much
thought to it yet. Also, bear in mind that one of the reasons the Supermen
were so effective is that they faced largely Militia or Untrained troops,
stiffened by Local Line troops for the most part (at least this is the
impression I've always had). So take an elite Sauron force with Orbital, Air,
and Arty support against a larger poorly equipped planetary force (who MIGHT
have some arty and maybe some armor, but maybe
not) that probably consists of in DS2 terms of 60-80% militia troops,
20-40%
Line troops and 0-10% elite troops (off the top of the ol' noggin) that
is disorganized and frightened, et voila the myth of the indestructible
Sauron.

Well that's my.02 worth, maybe I'll scour my books and do some cogitating on
the matter.

Hope this helps

Gene.

> I have a friend that wants to create a Sauron army based on Jerry

1) Saurons are from the 'War World' series - same universe. They are
mentioned in Mote etc in passing - the wars vs the Sauron Supermen.
Shades of the Clone Wars from the SW mythos, but I digress. Basically, before
Mote, a society sprang up based on genetic manipulation. Essentially they
considered themselves Supermen, a la Nazis in WW2, and acted similarly. They
were utterly exterminated, and everyone breathed a sigh of relief. BUT...One
small group got away...
2) I have a few 15mm Moties -er- 'Trimotes', some in power armour,
acquired
15+ years ago...

-------------------------      <> <>   How doth the little Crocodile

> The Mote around Murchuson's Eye? I wasn't aware that there was another

> Ah, we greybeards perhaps regret that we didn't buy any Asgard