Seems the IF project has the Fleet well under way, so let me bring up the
subject of ground units.
I see the bulk of the Islamic Federation's troops as basically local defense
militia. Lightly armed, few vehicles.
Then we have the local Emir's troops. Some good quality, some not so
good, emphasis on light vehicles, possibly GEVs w/ HVCs/RFACs.
Then we have the Islamic Federation Land Forces (IFLF). No size 4+
vehicles, and a lot of the vehicles they have will be fairly lightly armored.
Fast GEVs will predominate. Troops quality will be indifferent at best. Out of
these will also be formed the Revolutionary Guards Corps, which is higher
quality and better equipped, although the leadership tends to be selected for
political reliablity rather than anything else (Orange 3s!). Primary function
of the RGC is to deal with
any Emirs which get too independance-minded.
Then various special formations:
Ghulams: Turkish medium Grav armored vehicles. Best elements of the entire
armed forces. Mutatuwwi'a: Volunteer Religious Fanatics. Light infantry
mounted in trucks. Really enthusiastic, but not that competent. Only redeeming
virtue is there's a lot of them. Maghriba: Lybian light grav tanks. 'Abid:
Mercenaries from the PAU. High quality heavy infantry Zanj: Sudanese light
infantry of good quality.
Afghans: Light Infantry from hell--not only are they really, really,
good, but they ignore movement modifiers for mountains and hills.
Any comments? (Tony?)
In a message dated 12/11/98 9:54:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> john.m.atkinson@erols.com writes:
<< see the bulk of the Islamic Federation's troops as basically local defense
militia. Lightly armed, few vehicles.
Then we have the local Emir's troops. Some good quality, some not so
good, emphasis on light vehicles, possibly GEVs w/ HVCs/RFACs.
Then we have the Islamic Federation Land Forces (IFLF). No size 4+
vehicles, and a lot of the vehicles they have will be fairly lightly armored.
Fast GEVs will predominate. Troops quality will be indifferent at best. Out of
these will also be formed the Revolutionary Guards Corps, which is higher
quality and better equipped, although the leadership tends to be selected for
political reliablity rather than anything else (Orange 3s!). Primary function
of the RGC is to deal with
any Emirs which get too independance-minded.
Then various special formations:
Ghulams: Turkish medium Grav armored vehicles. Best elements of the entire
armed forces. Mutatuwwi'a: Volunteer Religious Fanatics. Light infantry
mounted in trucks. Really enthusiastic, but not that competent. Only redeeming
virtue is there's a lot of them. Maghriba: Lybian light grav tanks. 'Abid:
Mercenaries from the PAU. High quality heavy infantry Zanj: Sudanese light
infantry of good quality.
Afghans: Light Infantry from hell--not only are they really, really,
good, but they ignore movement modifiers for mountains and hills. >>
John...at the lower levels (and most likely mid levels too) I would think that
wheeled and tracked (mostly wheeled) combat vehicles would be predominant.
Grav & Gev are expensive to build and tough to maintain. Tracked are too, but
to a lesser degree. I would think these people would think in technically
simpler terms, as many Arab countries rely heavily on outside contractors for
upkeep of hi tech stuff (The Saudi air force for example has mostly U.S.
contracted tech people to keep their Eagles flying). Not sure if this cultural
characteristic would translate exactly into the far future...but since we are
extrapolating for effect, why not? David McElhannon
> Mutatuwwi'a: Volunteer Religious Fanatics. Light infantry mounted in
And you can point them at anything, say "go get it", and they'll go. They may
not win, mind you, but they'll charge.
> John...at the lower levels (and most likely mid levels too) I would
Ah, but roads are REALLY expensive to build & maintain, and grav vehicles will
float off the sand ( or other terrain).
In a message dated 12/11/98 9:51:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> laserlight@cwix.com writes:
<< Ah, but roads are REALLY expensive to build & maintain, and grav vehicles
will float off the sand ( or other terrain).
> [quoted text omitted]
Ahhhh...but dirt roads often come from animal drawn vehicles and they require
even less maintenance so your civ pop on a backwater world would use them
frequently....thus wheeled would have lots of roads....look at SE asia....Grav
still too technical for major use by these people
> << Ah, but roads are REALLY expensive to build & maintain, and grav
Yeah? You want to drive a panzer down one of these? Really? Even better, how
about an armor transporter? My parents live on what was until recently a dirt
road, but it took a lot of work to convert it from "cattle path" to "dirt
road."
> ....Grav
They have starships, or they wouldn't be here in the first place. I grant you
the citizen may well have camel trails to follow, but probably a GEV or grav
bus as well. And the military will probably have a fairly high proportion of
the technical people ("Join the Army, learn a career"). I can't see wheeled or
tracked military vehicles anywhere that has the ability to produce GEV or
above, unless there are special terrain considerations or there is a road net
already in place.
> Laserlight wrote:
> > Mutatuwwi'a: Volunteer Religious Fanatics. Light infantry mounted
They
> may not win, mind you, but they'll charge.
My rules will be that they are always green, but for confidence checks they
roll a d10 anyway.
> At 09:46 11/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
Yes but probably never seen in greater than brigade strength. Can't let a
commander have too many of these as he might get ideas.
> Mutatuwwi'a: Volunteer Religious Fanatics. Light infantry mounted in
Yes but mostly Green with some Regulars. Confidence is as Elite until unit
leader KO'd. ie platoon leader buys it then his platoon tests as
Green/Reg,
Brigade leader buys it and the whole brigade tests as Green/Reg.
> Maghriba: Lybian light grav tanks.
Yes but no supporting elements.
> 'Abid: Mercenaries from the PAU. High quality heavy infantry
Reg or Vet inf. Each Battilon should have 1 platoon of PA. Not much support.
> Zanj: Sudanese light infantry of good quality.
Reg or Vet infantry with supports (but perhaps only light Artillery and not
much)
> Afghans: Light Infantry from hell--not only are they really, really,
Afghan Mujahadin - Regular or Vet. Treat as normal line inf but
they get a close combat bonus the same as PA. No vehicles and no formation
bigger than battilon. Confidence always D10.
In a message dated 12/12/98 1:13:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> laserlight@cwix.com writes:
<< Yeah? You want to drive a panzer down one of these? Really? Even better,
how about an armor transporter? My parents live on what was until recently a
dirt road, but it took a lot of work to convert it from "cattle path" to "dirt
road."
> ....Grav
They have starships, or they wouldn't be here in the first place. I grant you
the citizen may well have camel trails to follow, but probably a GEV or grav
bus as well. And the military will probably have a fairly high proportion of
the technical people ("Join the Army, learn a career"). I can't see wheeled or
tracked military vehicles anywhere that has the ability to produce GEV or
above, unless there are special terrain considerations or there is a road net
already in place.
> [quoted text omitted]
I tell you what...I'm not gonna argue with you...suffice to say the Germans
used dirt roads to great effect in 1941 in Russia...1940 in Greece for that
matter. If you followed the thread, John Atkinson was attempting to lay out a
reasonable set of social characteristics for one power. I was attempting to
add to that flavor with our only point of reference...the Earth. The great
thing about Sci-fi is that it's not real and you can have your opinion
and I can have mine. If John can have large bands of flunkies with assault
rifles in trucks and some sort of Cossack like light cav troopers, why
couldn't you expect these people to be a bit technically backward? Sure there
would be some Grav, some hover...but economically (from a technical
standpoint) if they don't breed a lot of techs, and most of those they do are
siphoned off to provide for the space services, then why couldn't they be
primarily low tech? Look at Turkey today....the airforce siphons off most of
the technically superior people that want to go into the service, leaving the
dregs for the
navy and the army....which is why they fly f-16's while making do with
1960's era tanks and WWII converted warships. As far as getting into space
goes, are the ships registered to those planets? Are they built there? Who
crews them? All natives? Go out in the field and get Joe Farmer to navigate
your frigate? Hmmmmm...who knows? Who really cares? You have your world view
and I have mine. And frankly, never the twain shall meet. Flame me if you
want, cause this is my last response. Like I said, I'm not gonna argue with
you.
BTW...John I admire what you are doing and think it is a great idea...frankly
I love the idea of a new Roman Empire in space and see it as a wonderful
scenario generator. I hope you at least looked at my input for the IF since
you didn't post anything in return to the idea I had. Thanks, David
> CartoGrafx@aol.com wrote:
> I tell you what...I'm not gonna argue with you...suffice to say the
I've read van Creveld's study on the logistical aspects of the 1941 campaign
in Russia. It's not a good example. Very ugly. Of course, Germans had
insufficient trucks moving insufficient supplies across vast expanses with
insufficient roads. Not a good combo. Plus the railroads were all in that
screwy communist gage which isn't compatible with anyone else's railroads, so
the Germans were stuck with using captured rolling stock (most of which was
destroyed or damaged) and rebuilding the entire rail network.
> can have mine. If John can have large bands of flunkies with assault
No, no actual light cavalry. Just light armored cavalry.:)
> Look at Turkey today....the airforce siphons off most of the
Interesting point--one notes this sort of thing in a lot of third-world
militaries. Also the perponderance of "Elite" formations (Ever counted
the number of types of so-called "elites" in the Iraqi Army? Starting
with the Brigade Commando companies, and going to the Republican Guard Special
Forces Brigades) where they try to concentrate any troops with any quality
whatsoever.
> As far as getting into space goes, are the ships registered to those
Yes, some of them, and yes. At least New Rihyad probably has space
craft-building facilities.
> scenario generator. I hope you at least looked at my input for the IF
I'm going with wheeled/tracked for the Emirate's units, with more GEV
for the IFLF (I love that acronym, pronounced "If-Lif"), and Grav for
the best units.
OK, sports fans. I've got the militia, Emirate, IFLF, and Revolutionary
Guard (changed from Republican Guard--the IF isn't a Republic, so it
makes no sense) up, about to start in on the elites, then go back and put in
points values (boggle!). I've caught a couple dozen typos and other stupid
mistakes in this thing before posting, so I'm sure there's a dozen more. Could
someone who hasn't been looking at this so long it's all starting to blur
together please double check?
BTW, please send grammer and typo corrections to me via e-mail, content
discussion can stay on the list.
http://www.angelfire.com/va/basileus/if.html
[quoted original message omitted]
> John M. Atkinson <john.m.atkinson@erols.com> wrote:
They might have units like this:
Toyota's with Milan
It's hard to remember that the IF will have access to whole worlds. I can't
imagine that they would seek a desert world when one with varied climates are
so much more profitable.
I do agree that if current Islamic Fundamentalism continues, they will have
a larger emphisis on infantry and de-emphisis on high technology.
However, there will always be those who are mesmerized by technology. Thus,
(as others have suggested) elite units may have advanced technology.
It is also possible to envision an IF country that saw FTL as the "oil of the
future" and invested heavily in FTL technology manufacturing, development,
service, and transportation.
> "John M. Atkinson" wrote:
> Seems the IF project has the Fleet well under way, so let me bring up
http://www.angelfire.com/va/basileus/if.html
has complete first draft all up now--linked properly to Laserlight's IF
page, and I split up the ground forces, as the page was getting to big to deal
with.
> At 10:09 14/12/98 +1300, you wrote:
Hey, hey, backoff. That was my idea for the Light Anti Tank units of the
Caliphate.:) Seriously, I've already posted John A a rough organisation chart
which he said he might post. Haven't done any vehicle stats or fleet data yet
but will by Christmas as I'm stuck in Sydney working Christmas Eve and Boxing
day (what a bitch!). Idea was that regular untis get Grav or GEV "Toyota"
whilst Militia get wheeled.