Maybe I'm being dense or something but what are the rules concerning
Command/Communications systems? We know how much space they take up in a
vehicle and what they cost but what are they used for? Why should one have one
except to provide an expensive target? Page 6. Command Control and
communications talks about them but that's it. I don't recall anything in the
assorted FAQ about them.
I am being blind or stupid? Cheers
> --- Symon Cook <Symon@ereshkigal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I can't find the answer. I always assumed they 'had' to be there, but that's
not fer sure.
Look under the rules for "Rallying" p.24;o) hope it helps.
[quoted original message omitted]
In article <20021203220349.79289.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com>, John Atkinson
<johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes
> --- Symon Cook <Symon@ereshkigal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Me too. Then I went looking for what happens when it gets destroyed.
Doesn't seem to be related to the 'Unit leaders - loss and replacement'
rule of P. 23. Cheers
In article <00b801c29b1b$29010470$078b7bd5@garzukeen>, Gary Jeffery
<garzu@btinternet.com> writes
> Look under the rules for "Rallying" p.24 ;o)
Just says 'overall command unit'. Nothing about needing a C/C System. In
fact the commentary on C/C on P. 6. comments that leaders are not
necessarily in/with the C/C system. It says that loss of C/C causes
problems, but no rules detail this. Cheers
> --- Symon Cook <Symon@ereshkigal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Overall command unit means 'unit with C2 system', I presume.
> fact the commentary on C/C on P. 6. comments that
Yes, they do. Loss of Command Unit on page 24.
> Symon Cook wrote:
> Maybe I'm being dense or something but what are the rules concerning
You decide for yourself <g> But read the "Loss of Command Unit" rule on
p.24 first - particularly the very last sentence.
Later,
> Symon Cook wrote:
I've updated the DS2 FAQ in response to this question. Thanks to Oerjan and
Gary, who's answers I've added to the FAQ. The DS2 FAQ is at:
http://valley.150m.com/Dirtside/FAQ/FAQ.html
In article <5.1.0.14.1.20021204001841.0379dec0@m1.853.telia.com>, Oerjan
Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> writes
> Symon Cook wrote:
> p.24 first - particularly the very last sentence.
Fair enough. In fact we've always kind of assumed this. My point is that the
rules are NOT clear by any stretch of the imagination. (Oh the arguments). For
example:
How big does you on table force need to be before it needs a C/C System?
What if it doesn't have one.
How big can an on table force get before it needs more than one C/C
system? What happens if it loses one?
Does a Platoon commander need one? A company Commander? A Brigade?
The reason I ask is I'm trying to firm up these rules, and maybe tie it
in into calling Ortillery/Air stikes/Artillery.
Cheers
In article <012d01c29b46$20333cc0$106136d2@Garfield>, Andrew Martin
<Al.Bri@xtra.co.nz> writes
> Symon Cook wrote:
That's a good start. Cheers
> --- Symon Cook <Symon@ereshkigal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> How big does you on table force need to be before it
Company.
> What if it doesn't have one.
Can't rally.
> How big can an on table force get before it needs
Not defined. Write your own doctrine. I have a TOC for each company and
loosing it only affects that company. Now, if BN TOC gets wiped out, then the
whole BN gets affected.
> Does a Platoon commander need one? A company
No, Sometimes, Yes.
Company commander is out there leading by example. His Ops Sergeant or Master
Gunner is in the TOC.
> The reason I ask is I'm trying to firm up these
Ah, well in US practice the Fire Support Team has a member in the company TOC
(the LT, as a matter of fact) which coordinates requests for artillery.
> Symon Cook wrote:
> >>Maybe I'm being dense or something but what are the rules concerning
Zero elements.
> What if it doesn't have one.
Then it can't rally any of its units.
> How big can an on table force get before it needs more than one C/C
Very good question.
> What happens if it loses one?
Unless it is the *overall* command unit, appearently nothing...
Later,
In article <20021204174644.31275.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com>, John Atkinson
<johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes
> --- Symon Cook <Symon@ereshkigal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Hmm, that would mean that a platoon of elite commandos couldn't self rally.
Not sure I buy that.
I'd be tempted to say that without a C/C a commander can only rally
units he is in base contact with, or perhaps within 2" or 3" of, as per the
unit Integrity distances. Cheers
In article <5.1.0.14.1.20021204190632.00a4c010@m1.853.telia.com>, Oerjan
Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> writes
> How big does you on table force need to be before it needs a C/C
So in a farcical example, if I field one element, it has to have a C/C
system? Or if one Infantry element, that element has to have an emplaced
C/C? Not sure I buy either of those.
> What if it doesn't have one.
Again, I expect an elite platoon of commando ought to be able to self rally.
> How big can an on table force get before it needs more than one C/C
Hmm, I get the impression I must be the only person to ever bother much about
this. (Sorry). Cheers
We already have unit commanders and a single force commander...
Anyone ever play with a system similar to the old Johnny Reb format?
Each platoon has a commander, each company has a commander,
etc.,
each force has a commander
Then you treat each company and larger command loss as affecting that unit
set's command structure.
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- Symon Cook <Symon@ereshkigal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Zero elements.
That's why we have house rules.
> >>What if it doesn't have one.
1)If you have an elite commando on the table, you're using 'em wrong. SOF do
NOT belong at the FEBA where people drive tanks around. They belong way behind
enemy lines where the enemy doesn't have anyone capable of putting up a fight.
2)If the unit's morale is broken, the unit's morale is broken. It's not going
to improve spontaneously.
> >Unless it is the *overall* command unit,
Don't apologize. OO is right--this is a case where
house rules come into play.
DSII assumes one C2 element is sufficient for the
whole battlefield because the BN/BDE HQ as adequate
information management assets to individually control each platoon and so the
company level is not a fighting headquarters, just an administrative thang.
Most people assume otherwise and organize their units in conventional company
formations (for more examples than you really want, see the NRE homepage). I
take this as far as having a C2 vehicle at the company level, and no less than
5 at the BN level.
> --- Symon Cook <Symon@ereshkigal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Hmm, that would mean that a platoon of elite
Asked and answered already...
> I'd be tempted to say that without a C/C a commander
Ah, but the standard DSII assumption set is that the commander is off
somewhere safe and that his only contact is through communications. Personal
leadership above the platoon level is non-existant.
If you insist on designating company and batallion commanders, you have to
houserule. In which case, the above suggestion is quite viable.
> Symon Cook wrote:
> >>How big does you on table force need to be before it needs a C/C
That's what the rules suggest, yes. If it does not have a C/C system, it
suffers the appropriate effects - ie., it can't rally. (Of course it
most likely won't *need* to rally either since it will almost inevitably be
destroyed first, but if it did need to it wouldn't be able to.)
> >>What if it doesn't have one.
Since you can't field elite (Red quality) commandoes in DS2 anyway without
using house rules, I don't see this as a very significant problem :-/
If you want a game where one side has a single platoon of elite troops and
nothing else, use SG2 or FMA:Skirmish (to be published Any Year Now <g>)
instead - they're much, much better suited to fights that small.
Regards,
> At 9:27 PM -0800 12/4/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Hmm? Royal Marine Commandos were all over Normandy. So were several other
Commando units that the British trained (Free French for example) on the
Eastern Edge of the British Beaches. Additionally, wouldn't the Rangers that
assaulted Pont du Hoc be considered commandos?
Frankly I always found that units with a D12 quality die, had to be killed to
a man in order to break their morale. They just fail far too little (unless
you've got realyl really bad dice karma).
In article <20021205053037.20930.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com>, John Atkinson
<johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes
> Ah, but the standard DSII assumption set is that the
It is? How come we have:
Loss of Command Unit (Page 24).
Then?
> If you insist on designating company and batallion
One of the things I'm currently working up. I wanted to start from the
definitive rules on Commanders and C/C Systems, which is proving hard.
Cheers
In article <20021205052748.20414.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com>, John Atkinson
<johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes
> 1)If you have an elite commando on the table, you're
It's not a common situation I grant you. Basically, I'm throwing up the
extreme cases which seem to be revealing ambiguities in the rule. So far,
everyone seems to have a slightly different interpretation, often a sign of a
rule that needs clarifying.
> 2)If the unit's morale is broken, the unit's morale is
There are cases of it doing so. For example units coming under heavy fire,
breaking, getting clear and then going back in.
> Hmm, I get the impression I must be the only person
Yeah, but I like to have different forces use different doctrines, including
very different organizations sometimes.
> Most people assume otherwise and organize their units
Sounds good to me. What House Rules do you use with this? (If any). Cheers
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Hmm? Royal Marine Commandos were all over Normandy.
Ah, but the Rangers were engaged in a legitemate SOF operation: Climbing a
cliff to kill at close range artillerymen who were not expecting or prepared
for close combat. Makes for a boring DSII game: Either your guys get up the
cliff and chew the gunners to tiny bits, or they slip and break their necks.
Put those same Rangers up against Panzers? Fish food. Every time Rangers were
used for conventional assaults, they took heavier casualties than a
conventional unit would have in the same circumstances because they are not
trained, organized, or equipped
to go toe-to-toe slugging it out with line units.
> --- Symon Cook <Symon@ereshkigal.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >than you really want, see the NRE homepage). I
The 5 John Vatatzes F C4I[1] Carriers at BN level together form the BN TOC.
Each company operates it's own CP. But my unit commanders have armored
vehicles for themselves (Company CO and XO, Batallion Commander and S3) so I
inflict morale penalties for the commander actually buying it, not shooting up
the TOC. But without a TOC to route commo through, I don't let the commander
rally units he's not close to. I ought to also penalize indirect fire support,
but I havn't had that situation come up recently. I rarely have the BN HQ on
the table anyway.
> At 1:11 PM -0800 12/5/02, John Atkinson wrote:
What all the other Commando units spread from Sword to Gold beach? One
difference is that many of these units had some seriously heavy firepower
available to them in very close response time. Having a Light or Medium
cruiser on the other end of a RT line is quite handy when you need some heavy
support fire.
> Put those same Rangers up against Panzers? Fish food.
In your average situation, granted. Terrain can mitigate that some though. The
1st Airborne held on for a bloody long time considering their light nature
against the remnants of 2 Panzer Divisions.
> From what I can understand of the operations on D-Day was that the
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> What all the other Commando units spread from Sword
Don't know enough about 'em. What kind of losses did they take, what
opposition did they face, and what exactally was their role? I mean, I don't
recall hearing of them spearheading the breakthroughs, but I may be wrong.
> >Put those same Rangers up against Panzers? Fish
Yeah. And the moral of that story is: "Don't drop airborne into the laager of
a Panzer Corps". Eventually they lost and lost badly. Was it worth it? No. Was
it a criminal misuse of resources? Yes. Was Montgomery guilty of gross
negligence? Yes. Should he have been awarded the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaf
Clusters? Many German generals got it for less contribution to the German war
effort.
In article <5.1.0.14.1.20021205064612.00a17b30@m1.853.telia.com>, Oerjan
Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> writes
> Symon Cook wrote:
Sad but true.
> but if it did need to it wouldn't be able to.)
Hmm.
> >>What if it doesn't have one.
As I said, I'm tossing out extreme situations.
> If you want a game where one side has a single platoon of elite troops
That's not what I'm after to be honest. (Don't have SG2 and I haven't managed
to get the FMA rules either).
No, the reason I ask is that I'm doing an extensive GROPOS -> DSII
conversion, which with the demise of AoG seems particular required. It's going
to have 3 parts. Rules Modifications, Direct Conversion of the published
material, and a heavily amended and recommended section, which will replace
the silly vehicles, technology and other unsatisfactory aspects of GROPOS.
Naturally, I then intend to make this freely available to interested parties.
Cheers
> At 1:51 PM -0800 12/5/02, John Atkinson wrote:
There was a Commando unit that dealt with capturing one of the ports to the
West of Sword that was a key point for petroleum supplies. They lost something
like a 3rd of their number, most of that was due to Landing craft casualties.
Only 2 landing craft got back from the beach to their mother ship if that's
any hint.
There were more that were in the east of Gold Beach North of the area where
Pegasus Bridge was. In fact they spread out in the area's north of the Whole
6th Airborne Division area east of Pegasus Bridge to pin down German units and
take on the various strong points.
> Yeah. And the moral of that story is: "Don't drop
Yep.They'ed have faired better with landing areas closer to the bridge in
question. The area South of the bridge was good in retrospect, but was really
thought be be bad for air landings (of course they dropped the Polish Brigade
there later...)
The presence of 9th and 10th SS Panzer was a pretty bad stopper. If they'ed
waited 2 weeks, they'd have been gone.
Reading P.24 more closely, my interpretation of how many C/C systems are
needed is zero. The rules only cover the LOSS of an onboard C/C unit,
it doesn't specify that one is required to begin with and it describes the
effects of losing one. Thus if you don't have one on board to start with, you
don't suffer any penalties because you don't have one to lose
- by transitive interpretation of the rules, if you don't have an
onboard C/C then you start out receiving orders through off-board
channels, as you would after an onboard C/C is destroyed.
The disadvantage would be more limited onboard rally capabilites.
One assumption might be that communicaitons are highly effective in the future
and a commander does not actually have to be anywhere near the battle to
control it. In a more practical point of view the commander does need to be
close by because Electronic Warfare will continue to escalate and
communications will never be guaranteed to be secure or unblockable.
Perhaps using off-board C/C requires a communication roll to connect?
Perhaps on a turn to turn basis?
This would allow players to choose to have an onboard C/C and provide a
distinct advantage to doing so to balance the obvious disadvantage of having
one that can be destroyed.
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
> At 9:29 AM -0700 12/6/02, B Lin wrote:
I think the easy way to look at it, is, "Since the old man isn't in harms way,
why are we going to (keep) sticking our necks out for him? After all, most of
squad two just got blown to shreds by that NAC mortar strike and there are
some Gurka's out on Squad three's left
flank. We know, because Pierre squad four's com-tech reported close
combat with the little demons and then he stopped stopped transmitting.
Reynard said he could hear screams and I believe him."
Ryan said:
> I think the easy way to look at it, is, "Since the old man isn't in
"Hey Sarge, Company says there's been some ESU infiltrators spotted in the
area, they want a report." "Okay, tell them we had a raid this morning but
we're just finishing driving them off. No significant casualties but an IAVR
hit the stores tent, tell'em we'll need to replace, uh, three cases of C
rations and some other stuff on the next supply run, list to be included with
the complete report this afternoon. Murphy, go catch Yuri and Ivan before they
leave,
and see how much vodka you can get for three cases of C-rats. And don't
offer to roll double or nothing this time."
From: "Ryan Gill" <rmgill@mindspring.com>
> >Yeah. And the moral of that story is: "Don't drop
You really, really, REALLY should have a look at "Airborne Assault". The demo
is available at
http://www.battlefront.com/products/aa/Overview.html
This is the most realistic simulation of military command & control available
at the moment.
Just download the demo, rather than take my word for it.
I'll second that recommendation. Wargames like Airborne Assault are one of the
reasons I keep a PC on my desk at home It should work under VirtualPC on a G4
though..
> Alan and Carmel Brain wrote:
> From: "Ryan Gill" <rmgill@mindspring.com>
> At 09:27 PM 12/4/2002 -0800, John wrote:
<Snip>
> > Again, I expect an elite platoon of commando ought
Not necessarily. Ranger companies were at D-Day, and the 1st Special
Service Force held a chunk of the line at Anzio. Even discounting any
historical instances, well, needs must when the devil drives. If you need
bodies to fill a hole (Battle of the Bulge, frex), you get them where you can.
Anyway, it sounds like it could be a fun scenario, if properly designed.
> 2)If the unit's morale is broken, the unit's morale is
Can't argue that.