> OK. I'll admit up front that I'm an idiot. I've got two copies of
Thanks in
> advance.
Here is a chart I made up a while back. It uses two dice per chit draw,
one is a D12 (1-12) and the other a D10 (0-9). The D12 counts as the
"tens":
10-12 Green 0
13-22 Green 1
23-29 Green 2
30-34 Green 3
35-37 Yellow 0
38-47 Yellow 1
48-54 Yellow 2
55-59 Yellow 3
60-64 Red 0
65-84 Red 1
85-99 Red 2
100-109 Red 3
110-114 Target Systems Down
115-116 Firer Systems Down
117-123 Immobilized
124-128 BOOM!
129 Reroll
You can use multiple sets of dice of different colors/styles to
simulate multiple chit draws. In this case, in order to recreate the exact
probabilites you would reroll exact duplicates of a single combination. For
example, you would reroll two "60" but not "60", "64". The reroll for "129" is
necessary since there aree exactly 119 damage chits. I suppose it would be
possible to add another "special" chit if you want.
Mikko Kurki-Suonio also has a chart on his website that uses
percentile dice. His website is at http://www.swob.dna.fi/~maxxon/
A full listing of the rest of the available chits is on p.5 of the DSII
rulebook.
Ciao,
************************************************
Hmm, yes okay, but the whole point of the chit drawing system is that it is a
LOT FASTER to draw say 4 chits than roll 2 dice 4 times and look up the result
on a table.
Same probabilities, just a hell of a lot faster with chits.
Mike Elliott, GZG
______________________________ Reply Separator
____________________________
_____
Subject: DSII damage chit chart.
Author: Tony Christney <acc@uvic.ca> at BULL
Date: 15/02/1998 19:13
> OK. I'll admit up front that I'm an idiot. I've got two copies of
Here is a chart I made up a while back. It uses two dice per chit draw, one
is a D12 (1-12) and the other a D10 (0-9). The D12 counts as the "tens":
10-12 Green 0
13-22 Green 1
23-29 Green 2
30-34 Green 3
35-37 Yellow 0
38-47 Yellow 1
48-54 Yellow 2
55-59 Yellow 3
60-64 Red 0
65-84 Red 1
85-99 Red 2
100-109 Red 3
110-114 Target Systems Down
115-116 Firer Systems Down
117-123 Immobilized
124-128 BOOM!
129 Reroll
You can use multiple sets of dice of different colors/styles to
simulate multiple chit draws. In this case, in order to recreate the exact
probabilites you would reroll exact duplicates of a single combination. For
example, you would reroll two "60" but not "60", "64". The reroll for "129" is
necessary since there aree exactly 119 damage chits. I suppose it would be
possible to add another "special" chit if you want.
Mikko Kurki-Suonio also has a chart on his website that uses
percentile dice. His website is at http://www.swob.dna.fi/~maxxon/
A full listing of the rest of the available chits is on p.5 of the DSII
rulebook. Ciao,
************************************************
Tony Christney
You betcha'! However, as soon as I opened my copy of D2, my first thought was
'Jeez, how long is it going to be before I lose one, three, forty of these
cool little chits?' The chart I devised was a survival move, pure and simple.
In other words, I trusted in Allah to keep my chits safe, and wrote up a D%
conversion chart. For the record, I haven't lost a counter yet....
Gene
> ----------
> Hmm, yes okay, but the whole point of the chit drawing system is that
I agree, I was just posting it for a guy who couldn't find a complete set of
chits... Besides, if you know the chart (not that hard after using it a few
times) AND you have five sets of dice in five different colors, I bet the
times would be quite similar.
> Same probabilities, just a hell of a lot faster with chits.
Until you start losing chits ;-)
> Mike Elliott, GZG
> At 01:38 PM 2/16/1998 +0000, you wrote:
My probabilities Professor would greatly disagree with you...
Gort, Klaatu barada nikto!
> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:36:58 -0800, "Phillip E. Pournelle" writes:
Huh?!?!
I can set up a chart that will exactly mimic the probabilities of a chit draw,
assuming ideal dice and ideal chips. Of course, no dice are ideal, and no cup
shuffle is ideal, but oh well, such is life.
For my $, I was willing to take a ding on skewing the probabilities
moving from the chit-draw to a d% based system, as long as all the
players in the game are using the same system I feel that there is little
lost. I am certainly unwilling to develop a system that takes into account the
probabilities of consecutive chit draws, that is unecessary IMO. If anyone is
willing to post the probability tables I'd look at 'em though.
Gene
Phil sez:
> > My probabilities Professor would greatly disagree with you...
Matt sez:
> Huh?!?!
> I can set up a chart that will exactly mimic the probabilities of a
> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:03:46 -0800, "George,Eugene M" writes:
There is NO "taking account of the probabilities of consecutive chit draws"!
Just reroll any set of dice equal to a previous set till they are all unique
numbers. This will give the same distribution as drawing chits.
Lets do a simple example, 10 chits (all different) draw 2.
If we actually draw the chits, we have a 1/10th chance of each chit on
the first draw, and a 1/9th chance of each remaining chit on the
second draw.
If we roll a 10 sides die, we have a 1/10th chance of each number of
the first roll. On the second roll we have a 1/10th chance of each
number again, but 1 out of 10 throws results in a re-roll (i.e. we
rolled the same number as the first roll). So the probability of
getting any remaining number on the second roll is 0.1 + 0.01 + 0.001
+ 0.0001 etc (up to a infinite number of re-rolls) = 0.111111111 ==
1/9th.
If you roll the first result, roll the second chit, just re-rolling
any time you get the same number as a previous result, you should get the
exact same distribution as drawing chits.
(All of this assumes perfect dice, chips, cup, etc)
> At 11:04 AM 2/17/1998 -0700, Seidl wrote:
When you use a set of dice, they have no memory and the odds never change for
each draw. However, when I draw a chit the next chit is now being drawn
against a smaller pool (number of chits minus 1 draw 1). If you prevent this
by dropping each chit back in and shaking each time, you consume more time
than throwing the dice and consulting the chart. Add the clump effect and
chits loose their desireability...
Gort, Klaatu barada nikto!
> At 12:41 PM 2/17/1998 -0700, Seidl wrote:
The fact is that we don't want this effect. We want a straight draw, that is
why I use the percentage charts.
Gort, Klaatu barada nikto!
Matthew spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> There is NO "taking account of the probabilities of consecutive chit
One could do it Matt's way if one wanted to use dice AND remain sane.
If one was insane, one could come up with charts for 1, 2, 3 to N picks that
cover the probabilities involved in consecutive picks, but once you pass two
and proceed into greater numbers of picks, this means a lot of work and
possibly rolling a big die (d10000 or something). It may be some of the
probabilities overlap, since you aren't concerned with order (ie I pick one of
chit A, one of chit B, one of chit C, I don't care if it was A B C or A C B or
C A B, etc.)., and this helps to thin out the number of possible results, but
I'm quite sure this is a project that
1. Would take more time than it is worth 2. See 1. 3. Wouldn't make life that
much easier (would just be a demonstration of basic probability theory applied
ad nauseum) 4. Isn't worth the strife when one can get either replacement chit
blanks from Avalon Hill or extra Dirtside chits from GZG.
If you had two sets plus a list of chits, you could make sure you had the
right number fairly easily at the start of each game. Variants to the game
could then involve varying chit densities.
One for GZG: Why can I find order info for extra DS2 chits, but not for SG2
counters? Or am I just thick?
Thomas.
/************************************************
To wrap it up for my part. I'm just fine with a single D% roll supplanting the
chits. Even with replacements available, ersatz
counters, &c. I just don't care to re-roll duplicates when you can just
do a straight die roll and have pretty much the same deal. I understand the
counter system, appreciate it and enjoy it, I just wanted to make certain I
had a backup.
Gene
<Snips to all and sundry>
Mmm, yes of course the probabilities would only be the same if you were to
draw ONE chit at a time _and put it back in the pot_ before drawing the
next.
Which only goes to show that replacing the chits with dice is not such a good
idea.
Mike Elliott, GZG
______________________________ Reply Separator
So, if the original reason for looking at using dice instead of chits was in
case you accidentally lose some of the chits (and how are you going to
know - count 'em all?), then the SIMPLE answer is to buy a set of spare
counters from GZG (available at moderate cost). You can forget about dice and
complicated tables then.
Mike Elliott, GZG
P.S. Spare counter sheets are available for both DSII and SGII.
______________________________ Reply Separator
<Sigh> Ok so I'm not wrapped up yet.....
Tongue in cheek from here out.
OK... OK... I'll use the freakin' chits, just get off'n my BACK! I didn't
expect some kind of Spanish Inquisition. Please mark me down for as many chit
tables as there are in the warehouse. They're WONDERFUL
!
MMM-HMMM LUV them CHITS. Boy-Howdy !
More seriously. The table I created to replace the counters ain't that
complicated one die roll with 2d%. The only thing it loses is the consecutive
chit drawing odds, which to my taste, isn't much of a big deal. So, while I
like and appreciate the counters, the initial draw to replace them lies
largely in an effort to circumvent the need to purchase new ones. I want to
play a game of D2, but my chits are packed. Well,
I'll just call up Geo-Hex
and voila, in three to six weeks with a major credit card CHITS! So the chart
(my version at least) obviates the need for chits in a fashion that I feel is
acceptable AND simple.
> ----------
> Tongue in cheek from here out.
They're even better with a little nacho sauce...
Mk
> At 02:22 PM 2/18/1998 +0000, Mike Elliot wrote:
> Mmm, yes of course the probabilities would only be the same if you were
Actually thats a poor idea. This means that heavy weapons such as a DFFG
5 has a non-linear advantage over its smaller cousin and is no longer
balanced in the points system. This is because as I draw out chits from the
pot, there are fewer chits to draw from that might have the all powerful BOOM
chit on it. Of course some would argue that the targeting system down can
therefore come up just as often, but it is a minority among the special chits
and is repairable, the BOOM is not. Therefore, it is better to roll on the
chart than to draw chits. Either way the chits skew the damage markers.
Gort, Klaatu barada nikto!
> Mmm, yes of course the probabilities would only be the same if you were
My original idea did not have this problem. Besides, for drawing 5 chits the
difference in the probabilities of any one result is on the order
of 10E-9 (I could be wrong, my stats is a bit rusty...
(114!)(5!)/(119!) - 1/119^5 is what I used, for those who will check)
> Which only goes to show that replacing the chits with dice is not such
But neither is it such a _bad_ idea. It just comes down to personal
preference. For the record, I haven't had a chance to try my chart out in a
game. Now that it has stirred up such debate, I think that I will
_have_ to try it out for a few games!
> Mike Elliott, GZG
************************************************
Here are my last comments on the chart vs. chit issue. I'm not trying to say
"chart good, chit bad" or vice versa. Personally I don't favor one over the
other.
> So, if the original reason for looking at using dice instead of chits
1. The dice are already integrated into the game, so are readily at hand. 2.
If you look more closely at the table I wrote up, it isn't that complicated.
3. I've already counted them all. The table already exists. It is just a
matter copying onto a piece of paper.
4. Why not put the counter sheet graphic on a website? Now _that_ would
make things simple. All you would need is access to a color printer and you're
home free.
> Mike Elliott, GZG
Is this why you are being so adamant?
************************************************
> From: Mike.Elliott@bull.co.uk
> After all, nobody really knows how effective any of these weapons are,
And having spoken those words Mike is suddenly surrounded by a crowd of Anorak
wearers chanting their litany of statistics and probabilities and mumbling
"But not to me!" while chewing their fingernails.
Sorry, but you are missing the point. When we designed the game, it was
_always_ intended that you pull so many chits from the pot at once.
Therefore it is incorrect to say that the damage markers are skewed.
If by drawing all the chits at once it means that heavy weapons have a
non-linear advantage (based on the probabilities) then that is how it
was meant to be. I won't argue the math here.
After all, nobody really knows how effective any of these weapons are, cos
they don't exist.
After all, its only a game.....
Mike Elliott, GZG
______________________________ Reply Separator
____________________________
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Subject: Re: Re[2]: DSII damage chit chart.
Author: owner-ftgzg-l@bolton.ac.uk at INTERNET
Date: 18/02/1998 21:13
> At 02:22 PM 2/18/1998 +0000, Mike Elliot wrote:
> Mmm, yes of course the probabilities would only be the same if you were
*Actually thats a poor idea. This means that heavy weapons such as a DFFG
5 has a non-linear advantage over its smaller cousin and is no longer
balanced in the points system. This is because as I draw out chits from the
pot, there are fewer chits to draw from that might have the all powerful BOOM
chit on it. Of course some would argue that the targeting system down can
therefore come up just as often, but it is a minority among the special chits
and is repairable, the BOOM is not. Therefore, it is better to roll on the
chart than to draw chits. *Either way the chits skew the damage markers.
Gort, Klaatu barada nikto!
Har!
Sounds like the other person who profits from the sale of counter-sheets
is piping up.
:)
> ----------