A discussion has come up on the Yahoo SG/FT discussion
group regarding Command Units in DSII. A couple of the members have pointed
out that while the DSII rules give capacity and points for a C3 suite, and
some nasty consequences for losing one, there is no specific rule requiring
you field one (I haven't had time to verify this myself). They are arguing
that in this case, it doesn't make sense to field one on the
board, but rather it should be placed off-board like
artillery.
My argument is that given the fact that there are no listed added bonuses to
fielding one (other than the ability to C&C), and the fact that it is listed,
it probably was INTENDED to be a requisite. Furthermore, given that some of
the penalties for losing one are for it's destruction, but others are for it's
absence (inability to rally e.g.), it seems to be IMPLIED that it's required.
The conclusion I reach is that if the rules really DON'T explicitly require
fielding one, they certainly do implicitly, and it must merely be an omission.
I was hoping to hear from some of the more seasoned DSII players out there,
maybe even Mike or St^3 Jon. While I have serious issues with the mechanics of
C3 in DSII, what these players are proposing smells of Gruyere....
> At 8:59 AM -0800 1/23/03, Brian Bilderback wrote:
My understanding is that if the C4I suite isn't on table, you can't rally
units. My additional understanding is that you can take multiple C4I suites on
table in order to maintain command and control in the case of the destruction
of one of the C4I suites.
I personally tend to take more than one C4I post in battles larger than 2
companies per side. One gets dug in on defensive missions
(APC/Tent setup dug in), one stays mobile. Typically one gets a pair
of tanks, a AAA and a pair of APCs around it as an escort. Considering it's
similar to all of the other figures on the table my opponent has to fight his
way to it after making sure it's what it is. It tends to stay behind hill
features or inside towns though.
The biggest problem for them is the Airstrike from Aerospace craft. I've got a
pretty good technique of stripping away AAA with repeated air strikes on
opponent's AAA quicker than they can strip mine away. Once the Iron Hand's
have dealt their blows a few bombers come in and deliver close strikes on
choice targets or key positions. If I get a shot at the C4I I always take it.
The ensuing chaos taught me early on that multiple C4I's on my own side would
be a great boon. So far I've only lost one of several in a game.
> My argument is that given the fact that there are no
The 2nd Commander is required for Rallying. You can't rally with out the "Old
Man" bitching out the Platoon Leader to get up to that 2nd phase line. Troops
aren't likely to rally because the old man said so from a nice safe bunker 75
miles to the rear.
> a discussion has come up on the Yahoo SG/FT discussion
> From Andrew Martin's DS2 FAQ (once you plough through all the pop-ups
Command and Control Systems
What are the rules concerning Command/Communications systems? We know
how much space they take up in a vehicle and what they cost but what are they
used for? Why should one have one, except to provide an expensive target? Page
6, Command, Control and Communications talks about them, but that's it. I
don't recall anything in the assorted FAQ about them.
"Look under the rules for ÂRallying on page 24." Gary Jeffery
"Read the ÂLoss of Command Unit rule on page 24  particularly the very
last sentence."Â Oerjan Ohlson
This group rocks. thanks
--- "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
wrote:
> >a discussion has come up on the Yahoo SG/FT
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Considering it's similar to all of the other figures
That's a lot of assets escorting it, though. Doesn't that give it away.
> The biggest problem for them is the Airstrike from
Easiest way to deal with AA? Us US doctrine from
Air-Land era. VTOLs to strip out the AA in a specific
corridor using GMS/Hs. Then the attack aircraft have
a clear shot.
> The 2nd Commander is required for Rallying. You
Of course, my commanders also lead from front at company level (and I do
believe in companies from a unit cohesion standpoint). Even my BN commanders
are
issued tanks and expected to be in them--let the XO
run the TOC. You can tell where they are--all other
tanks are in 4s, these are singles or in pairs.
> --- John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
> That's a lot of assets escorting it, though.
True, and even if the assets aren't more in number than a standard platoon,
the specialized nature of the elements probably will.
> Easiest way to deal with AA? Us US doctrine from
DSII Rules even lend themselves to this. I read more closely, all GMS fired by
a UNIT (Not a single element) are layed out before ADS is resolved. ZADS
firecon is gonna degrade PDQ if 6-8 GMS/H's are coming
in, and even with a PDS backup, the law of averages starts to weigh in on the
side of the attacker.
> Of course, my commanders also lead from front at
So do you have HR's to simulate this more intimate style of leadership?
> At 9:45 AM -0800 1/23/03, John Atkinson wrote:
It all depends on the mode of the battle. I tend to have a reserve force
nearby so when you get all those assets on the field, ARVs, a CEV or two,
reserves, C4I and local guards, as well as artillery, their supply vehicles
and a CBR you tend to loose the C4I in the mass of little figures. Sure, he
could walk around and count antennas (they're modeled) but then I don't play
with people that do that....
> Easiest way to deal with AA? Us US doctrine from
I use the Aerospace for that with VTOLs supporting. I've done both, but I tend
to like a light force with the Aerospace doing this in large amounts. The
transient nature of the Aerospace helps their survival rate. Plus I've
actually got more of those than heavily armed VTOLs. I do have one entire
company of medium lift Transport VTOLs and a 4 ship detachment of heavy
transport VTOLs.
The Higher amount of Aerospace with heavy weapons outweighs the Heavy attack
VTOLs though.
> Of course, my commanders also lead from front at
Same here. I tend to have a Company Command platoon of 2-3 tanks/APCs
close to their companies or acting as an ersatz reserve in addition to the
platoon or coy that I've set aside as a reserve.
> issued tanks and expected to be in them--let the XO
Btn XO and CO are in the 2 extra TOCs. Co XOs are assumed to be in one of the
platoons as an attached element or distinct element. I don't really model that
Co Sgt or XO as a separate element unless I've got some other element riding
herd with one of the vehicles. Btn XOs and NCOs or some senior type like them,
tend to ride herd on the
ARVs, AEVs/AVLBs, and other similar units in an APC. I've even been
known to have a unit refueling point in a rear area just placed as a neat
thing on the table (no points cost really, but no combat result's either,
sometimes it's an objective though).
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> It all depends on the mode of the battle. I tend to
Sounds like that would be identified as the center of gravity anyway. I'd be
throwing all kinds of assets into that mix on the premise that anything in
that mess is valuable.
I tend to run with my arty off-board, and only 2-6
mortars on the table. Engineers are only if needed--I
assume that otherwise they'd be kept fairly far back.
> >issued tanks and expected to be in them--let the XO
XO is in the TOC, BC and BN S3 are in tanks. A proper TOC requires so many
assets that it's not practical to duplicate at the BN level.
> don't really model that Co Sgt or XO as a separate
Company CO and XO are in tanks, the 1st SGT is in an APC or a jeep.
Btn
> XOs and NCOs or some senior type like them, tend to
My engineers have their own chain of command, and my
ARVs are chopped down to the company--1st SGT may or
may not ride herd on them, depending on what else he has to do.
> --- John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I tend to run with my arty off-board, and only 2-6
a split between on and off board arty seems to make
sense given the DSII rules. Off-board arty only has
to worry about CB in standard rules, but to avoid it, you get that 1 turn
available, 1 turn not conundrum.
If it's all off-board, the only way to compensate is
with 2 batteries, firing alternately. But if you want an uninterrupted supply
of arty missions AND the
ability to lay a multiple-battery big hurt down, you
need some on-board with it's shoot-and-scoot ability.
> At 10:35 AM -0800 1/23/03, John Atkinson wrote:
It tends to be a spread out mess however. They aren't bunched up. The
premise is that there are enough non-line units in the second echelon
that picking the single C4I unit out isn't a trivial task. Especially since I
do tend to hide them and some of the support assets in reverse slopes and
behind forests.
Of course, the average DSII player I go up against isn't quite of the same
quality as you John. I'd love to get a game up with you just to see how nasty
you really are.
> I tend to run with my arty off-board, and only 2-6
I address it depending on the battle. Some battles are a mix, really big
battles have mortars and guns on table with heavy artillery off table. Med
artillery gets the pick of off or on usually. In big
battles I like for the on board artillery to have a re-supply element
as well for those sustained engagements.
> > >issued tanks and expected to be in them--let the XO
I'm figuring that the C4I is the TOC at something like Battalion
level. That's about the largest scale of game I've run, 4-5 companies
makes a pretty good reinforced battalion.
> Company CO and XO are in tanks, the 1st SGT is in an
That's the one thing I'm missing from my figures. A couple of really properly
sized jeeps. I've got trucks though.
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> It tends to be a spread out mess however. They
Maybe your TOCs are really small... I symbolize mine
with 3 APC parked end-to-end. IRL, they are 4 (S2,
S3, S4, Commo Section) command vehicles, plus 1 for the Fire Support Cell.
Plus maybe 12 or so jeeps.
> Of course, the average DSII player I go up against
Where are you located in the US? Get in touch with me after I get back from
the war and I'll see if I can work you in on leave.
> I'm figuring that the C4I is the TOC at something
I don't have the figs for 4-5 companies. I will,
though. By the time I get back--I'm leaving Don a
check to do some purchases for me. The intent is to be able to field a full
Klibanophoroi BN Task Force. 50K points or so. You up for it?
> That's the one thing I'm missing from my figures. A
http://www.gtns.co.uk/gzgstore/html/images/dsm-113.jpg
Really nice hardshell grav jeep. For wheeled ones I use the GHQ HMMWV minis.
--- Brian Bilderback <greywanderer987@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> If it's all off-board, the only way to compensate is
Each of my batteries is divided into two platoons. Standard usage is to use
one platoon for support firing every other turn, and one platoon for dedicated
CB work.
> --- John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Maybe your TOCs are really small. . .
Pardon me for being on the Still Learning endo f the curve, but what does TOC
stand for?
Tactical Operations Center.....the command and control element to your units.
Don
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
Nice arrangement. I need to firm up just how I plan
to run my arty. I'm also still learning the terms - I
was making the mistake of referring to Arty platoons as batteries.
> From a "Making it seem realistic" POV, off-board makes
Danke
> --- Don M <dmaddox1@hot.rr.com> wrote:
> At 4:32 PM -0800 1/23/03, Brian Bilderback wrote:
See http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-09.70/ch3.htm#s2
Pretty good ideas. 6 tubes, break them into 3 and 3, 2 and 4, or keep them all
together in a unit of 6. One could at a POC for a 2, 2 and 2 arrangement as
well.
--- Brian Bilderback <greywanderer987@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Nice arrangement. I need to firm up just how I plan
Platoon is 3-4, Battery is almost always 2 platoons.
> From a "Making it seem realistic" POV, off-board
Excellent point.
> At 4:23 PM -0800 1/23/03, John Atkinson wrote:
I figure that a size 3 vehicle with the necessary officers is able to handle
the information load by the 2183 period with huristic learning computers and
AIs to handle the flow of info in and out. The officers probe the details and
make the key decisions that the computers can collate. The officers also
mainly compose rules to guide the computers in their tasks of routing
information.
> Where are you located in the US? Get in touch with me
I'm in Atlanta, Ga. A bit far from Texas (I think that's where you're
at).
> I don't have the figs for 4-5 companies. I will,
50K points? I'd have to do a bit of working. I'll double check the data base
and see.
> Really nice hardshell grav jeep. For wheeled ones I
Yeah, I've been wanting to get something other than hover craft or HMMWVs. I
might have to scare up some Austin Champs as they're pretty interesting in
themselves as a light utility vehicle. My main force is mostly a wheeled and
tracked force. I also have an OU force that's entirely grav with some cheaper
hover support vehicles.
> --- John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Platoon is 3-4, Battery is almost always 2 platoons.
Fits into Cascadian docrine nicely, where
platoons/lances are 4-5, companies are 3 platoons (so
it's be 2 platoons of 4 guns, 1 platoon with CBR, ADA and reloads)
> Excellent point.
Thanks. My one major PROBLEM with off-board is that
some cheesehead will decide that since it's off-board
and untouchable by anything in the game except CBF, and since that's merely an
issue of firing every other turn, they're gonna make their SPG's slow tracked
or LMW or something equally cheapass, regardless of what they're fielding on
the board. As opposed to lil' ol' me, who figures the force in question is
going to equip their SPG's with mobility that actually makes sense on a larger
operational scale. Of course, house rules or Narns can take care of that.
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I've been wanting to get something other than
Someone was selling some GHQ German Iltis on ebay, not sure if it's ended or
not.
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I figure that a size 3 vehicle with the necessary
Officers and NCOs... there's not much room in a size 3 vehicle.
> I'm in Atlanta, Ga. A bit far from Texas (I think
Roughly between me and VA, which is where my parents are from.
> At 8:09 PM -0800 1/23/03, John Atkinson wrote:
You can get three squads in such a vehicle. I figure a Saracen is about a size
3 vehicle (on the small end), accounting for density of power packs and such.
Since you can get 10 troops in a Saracen, that jives with number of troops you
can get in such a vehicle.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
Three teams.
> figure a Saracen is
Actual capacity of a size 3 vehicle is 15 men. Minus whatever room you use for
weapons et al. But my
comment is from having been inside an M-577 and an
M-1068 both.
They get really crowded if you get more than a couple guys in there moving
around at the same time. Put up mapboards etc?
You can pack infantry privates like sardines if all you expect them to do is
ride quietly until it's time to get out and earn their paychecks. You can't
stuff majors and captains in like that, along with a couple cubic feet of
computer, and then expect them to fight a battalion!
--- Brian Bilderback <greywanderer987@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> So do you have HR's to simulate this more intimate
Not formally. I'm more of a roleplayer than anything
else. It's wierd--my wargaming shows strong RPing
influences, and my RPing shows heavy wargaming influences.
> Not formally. I'm more of a roleplayer than anything
"All games are role-playing games."
> At 9:44 PM -0800 1/23/03, John Atkinson wrote:
Sorry, Ill chosen word.
> Actual capacity of a size 3 vehicle is 15 men. Minus
I figure that your bargan size M113 is size 1 or 2 when you get down to the
hard number. I'd say size 2. Though thinking about it, that'd makes the
Saracen more a size 2. So an Abrams is size 3....
> They get really crowded if you get more than a couple
Electronic ultra flat displays, holo-boards that don't need lots of
space.
> You can pack infantry privates like sardines if all
Granted, however, computers by that point ought to be bloody small. I have a
work station at work that I could fit 6 people in with packs and all. I have
more than enough room for the functions I do with much larger computers and
lots of stowage of gear that I use for my
job. Now, I envision that by 2183 a staff of 2-3 officers and one
senior officer can fit into the space that 3 teams of men would fit into. The
radios don't need to be huge, you don't need large boards and overlays to get
the picture because the holo suite can be projected on your eye or in the air
in front of you.
Figure that basic AI's will get to the size of a pack of cigarettes by then.
Com gear should be tiny. Most of this gear should be able to allow a small
staff to coordinate most of the things that you need to get routed. All of the
basic logistic's details would be handled by the AIs allowing the commanders
to coordinate and decide what needs to be.
On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:22:16 -0500 Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com>
writes:
> At 9:44 PM -0800 1/23/03, John Atkinson wrote:
<snip>
> You can pack infantry privates like sardines if all
Isn't this more reason to have those 'useless' command vehicles? Given
the above thread, imagine a size 4 vehicle with self-defense
(translation
- "OH MY GOD, WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?") weapons and comm/command
gear/staff. Workable even for John's view and effective from Ryan's
view.
Gracias,
> --- John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not formally. I'm more of a roleplayer than
What's so weird about that? :-)
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I figure that your bargan size M113 is size 1 or 2
Size 3 APC is. . . BTR-152.
> Granted, however, computers by that point ought to
Right.
> have a work station at work that I could fit 6
I just have a hard time imagining the BN TOC down to
3-4 officers.