> John M. Atkinson <john.m.atkinson@erols.com> wrote:
Ahh, but if you use aerospace interceptors, then it's all back to normal! See
my site for more.
> I have been considering porting over the Air Defense Levels from SGII
A little too abstract, I feel. Particularly if players have aerospace assets
that can reach out and touch air defence bases with a missile of their own.
Why not base it on a system like TADS, use Limited Availability and then put
the TADS off board? All points costs and system sizes are
logically extrapolated from DSII GMS and ADS/ZAD. This is from my site:
Theatre Area Defence System (TADS) This system, Theatre Area Defence System
(TADS), is similar to the zone area
defence system. TADS can fire a Theatre Anti-aerospace Missile (TAM) at
every aerospace element entering the table, or even off-table aerospace
elements! This system simulates the US THAAD missile defence system and
various long range Russian air defence systems. These missile systems have
great range, far greater than a typical DSII table. In the future, these
missile ranges are bound to increase. So instead of specifying a range, the
TAM missile range is assumed to be the size of the theatre. The theatre is
assumed to include the entire DSII table area, your off-table area, and
part
of your opponent's off-table area.
TADS are available in a range of sizes from size 1 to size 7. Capacity costs 5
à TADS size. The damage done to an aerospace target is equal to the TADS
size. ALL chits are valid just like ADS. Like an ADS, one missile can be fired
at each and every aerospace vehicle that enters the table normally. One
missile can be fired at each and every VTOL in HIGH mode on table. VTOLs in
LOW mode and terrain following or slow flying aerospace vehicles are immune to
attack by TADS, unless the element is in line of sight of TADS.
The TADS missile can reach any where on- and off-table. The TADS
can
be situated off-table, but if it is, on-table targets get to roll their
defence dice twice, and they choose their best rolls. This is because the
target element has more time to react. Naturally, aerospace vehicles and VTOLS
can carry TADS up to size 3. Think of TADS as being equivalent to Phoenix,
Sparrow or Sidewinder US air to Air missile systems.
TADS Guidance Size Damage Range Capacity Dumb Basic Enhanced Superior
Brilliant
TADS/1: 1 Theatre 5 200 400 600 800 1000
TADS/2: 2 Theatre 10 300 600 900 1200 1500
TADS/3: 3 Theatre 15 400 800 1200 1600 2000
TADS/4: 4 Theatre 20 500 1000 1500 2000 2500
TADS/5: 5 Theatre 25 600 1200 1800 2400 3000
TADS/6: 6 Theatre 30 700 1400 2100 2800 3500
TADS/7: 7 Theatre 35 800 1600 2400 3200 4000
Limited Availability Want an expensive points cost system, element or unit,
but you only have limited points? Just buy the system, element or unit with a
limited availability! Limited Availability gives you the system, element or
unit at a discounted points cost, but with limited availability.
For example, say you need a TADS/7 with Brilliant Guidance.
Normally, this would cost 4,000 points (see table above). But, you only have
around 1,000 points spare. To get the points cost discounted by 75%, limit the
availability of the system to 25%. This means that the Brilliant
TADS/7
is only available for use 25% of the time. To use this on the table top, an
availability of 25% converts to the
numbers 1 through 5 on a D20. Before each use of the TADS/7, roll an
availability D20 and try to get the result in that range. If you fail, the
TADS/7 is currently unavailable for that use. If you succeed, the TADS/7
is available for use and can be used normally. For example, using the above
settings, a unit of three aerospace
elements enter the table. If you had full use of the TADS/7, a TAAM
missile would be fired at each of three aerospace elements. Because you only
have 25% availability, roll the availability D20 for each missile attack. Try
to get 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 on the D20. Failure means that that aerospace element
is unscathed (for now!). Success allows the missile attack on that aerospace
element. In either case, repeat the availability attempt on the next aerospace
element. Yes, you can have two or more systems, elements or units with limited
availability. Just roll the availability die for each use of the systems,
elements or units. You aren't limited to just 25% availability either, the
whole range from 5% to 95% is available! If you really want to be nitpicky,
you can use 1D100 to determine availability (1% to 99%). Just be sure to let
your opponent know that you are doing this! And do try to be consistent, it
makes life easier!
Limited Availability can extend to the use of off-table
artillery units as well. Just roll the availability die for the unit,
etcetera.
The above is also at:
http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/DSII/EW.HTM
> Andrew & Alex wrote:
> Ahh, but if you use aerospace interceptors, then it's all back to
> A little too abstract, I feel. Particularly if players have
Here's where I wish to respectfully differ on what it is that the DSII table
represents. To me, you are assuming the TF commander role. This
varies from a company to a full batallion (normally--some games may be
larger) and hence the rank involved is CPT-LTC. I submit that a
field-grade maneuver commander does not have control over these assets,
nor would he even be able to influence their usage much. Nor do they directly
impact his fight. In other words, if it's echelons above what he would
control, then he shouldn't do so on the DSII table. Artillery can be allocated
to direct support of his formation or general support of his parent formation,
and air strikes are allocated to him by higher and controlled by his FACs, and
both directly shape his fight, so they are appropriate.
Besides, the complexity of air warfare cannot be adequately simulated by
a simple intercept-counter-intercept formula as seen in the three or
four different air intercept house rules I've seen.
> John M. Atkinson <john.m.atkinson@erols.com> wrote:
I think that is what a DSII player is! I think that it is even mentioned in
the DSII rule book that the player is far behind his own lines looking at a
sensor display that happens to look a lot like the table top. When the players
designs their forces with their assigned point value, I think that further
emphasizes that the player is the overall task force commander, and it's up
the player to determine exactly what points go to armour, infantry, artillery,
VTOL, FAC & FO, aerospace and
anti-aerospace
defence.
> In other words, if it's echelons above what
Have the supporting forces off table. Like the artillery, aerospace, and now
air defence using my rules. That way it's more directly out of control of the
on table commanders.
> Artillery
But so can air defence by constraining air power! VTOLs not being able to fly
in high mode and aerospace having to dodge missiles are both having problems
due to enemy air defence assets. So degrading your air attacks!
> Besides, the complexity of air warfare cannot be adequately simulated
From what I've read in my Air Missions book, most air warfare is really quite
simple, just fire missiles from long range. If there is any survivors,
finish them off with gun/cannon fire at close range from behind. If
you're getting into dogfights, then you're probably making mistakes. The only
other
addition I would probably make is to allow a multi-attack, a missile
attack
followed by a gun/cannon attack in the same turn.
In my rules, there is intercept, counter-intercept and counter-
counter-intercept and so on. There is also romantic combat for aerospace
dog fights, if you feel that it's appropriate, and you've made the mistake of
getting into a dog fight. :-)
> Andrew & Alex wrote:
Right. The DSII player is the TF commander--not the Divisional
Commander, or the Corps Commander, or anything else[1]. And I don't like the
concept of the guys leading the charge from orbit. Personal leadership is
still a must at the company level, and to a certain extent at batallion.
> When the players designs their forces with their assigned point
Right. Up until the Aerospace Defenses. Due to the range, expense, and rarity
of these weapons, I don't see them being released down to the
field-grade officers, any more than an Armored Batallion in Desert Storm
rode around with Patriots defending the TOC or F-15Cs on call.
But that's not the point--you've got your vision of the DSII field, and
I've got mine. And no reason the two can't coexist.
> >Artillery
Once you've got your air defense to the table, it's too late to knock it
down--he's in terrain following mode, at high speed. :)
> From what I've read in my Air Missions book, most air warfare is
If I recall right, that's what the Air Force thought before the Vietnam
War. Then all of a sudden, F-4s are getting splashed by MiG-15s and
-21s, gun pods are being improvised by crews in the field, and both the
Air Force and the Navy established dogfighting schools by the end of the war.
> John M. Atkinson <john.m.atkinson@erols.com> wrote:
Neither do I. But we can also say that each vehicle and soldier has a
heads up display with one display/view looking a lot like the DSII table
top battle field. With that view comes a better understanding of what must,
can,
can't and must not be done. It also shows the soldier when s/he's being
bullshitted!
> Personal leadership is still a must at the company level,
I think personal leadership is a must, too. No one can respect some one who
leads from behind! I've got several different leadership styles in my PAT
rules on my site.
> Right. Up until the Aerospace Defences. Due to the range, expense,
I agree they can be expensive and rare. But I feel sure that the Patriots and
F15s were being used to defend against SCUD attacks and attack SCUD sites,
respectively. The SCUDs could have been used to destroy the ground assault. If
there was no SCUD threat, I feel sure that the air assets would be available
to the ground forces to use as required. And that air defence assets would be
covering the rear area and the battlefield to stop or slow down enemy
aircraft.
> But that's not the point--you've got your vision of the DSII field,
Agreed.
> And no reason the two can't coexist.
But you may be looking for something that doesn't really exist. Modelling a
Theatre Range Air Defence with a physical device like my TADS is realistic and
gives you a general air defence rating, that covers the table top, your own
rear area, and part of the opponent's rear area. For 4000 DSII points, you've
got the capability to put a Brilliant (1D12) missile that draws 7 chits damage
on every VTOL or aerospace element on the table that's at high altitude (in
high mode). It's a nice air defence umbrella! If your force design doesn't
allow for that many points, use my Limited Availability rules. Or choose a
lower cost, lower capability, variant of TADS.
To make it out of the influence of the on-table force commander, put
it
off table. That way it can't be directly attacked by on-table enemy
forces. Only a wild weasel type mission by enemy aerospace assets can take it
out.
> Once you've got your air defence to the table, it's too late to knock
Not quite, I've assumed that when an aerospace element goes on the table, it's
at the equivalent of VTOL high mode and can be seen by every
element on the table. So then it can be shot at with ZAD/ADS or my TADS
as per the standard DSII rules. If the aerospace element is to fly in terrain
following mode or VTOL low mode, I have separate rules for that. In terrain
following mode, only when
the aerospace element is in line of sight of the ZAD/ADS or TADS, can it
then be shot at. The trade-off is that the pilot of the aerospace
vehicle
has to make threat tests/skill rolls avoid hitting the scenery. Unless
they are predesignated as ground attack pilots, which then means they have
problems with air-to-air missions.
> From what I've read in my Air Missions book, most air warfare is
Yes. That's because of the US government interference! The requirement
of visual identification before shooting/firing missiles. Which meant
that planes had to be at dog fighting range first. Which is why the USAF
thought
that way. And now the USAF practise dog-fighting as part of the fighter
pilot craft. But dogfighting is really the last resort, when missile and gun
fire have failed or missed.
> Andrew & Alex wrote:
(I tried to live and let live, but apparently we can't live with someone
saying "Your house rules don't work for me")
> >And no reason the two can't coexist.
??? From a batallion commander's perspective, either his air support
arrives, or not. If not, there are two reasons--either it's got a
higher priority mission, or it's been shot down. If it's shot down by
patrolling interceptors, that's completely beyond his scope--he cannot
influence it in the slightest. So it's an influence on the battlefield, but
indirectly. Hence can be abstracted out with no loss in game play.
> Modelling a Theatre Range Air Defence with a physical device like my
Nonsense--chopping a single THAAD down to a batallion commander is no
more realistic than chopping a MIRVed ICBM down to a BN Cdr. A general "Air
Defense Environment" is more flexible, allowing for an entire
theater of air warfare to be off-stage, rather than an artificial "OK,
here's your batallion with it's organic strategic SAMs".
> To make it out of the influence of the on-table force commander,
I'm not talking about the enemy on-table commander, but the friendly
one. An armored batallion has no more business expecting to have a Patriot
assinged to it than it does having a battleship assigned to it.
And besides, those things come in batteries--6 Patriot launchers and one
control center, for instance. Now we've gone to 24,000 points. Plus
the control vehicle.
Remember that in the DSII battle field, the command hierarchy has been
flattened to nearly non-existent. The hierarchy only exists for
historical and unit morale reasons. Check out the DSII rule book, page 6,
Command, Control and Communications.
> John M. Atkinson <john.m.atkinson@erols.com> wrote:
The battalion commander being in the on-table command post, is that
right?
> If not, there are two reasons--either it's got a
> or it's been shot down.
No or ineffective escorting aerospace fighters purchased by the DSII player or
effective enemy AA or enemy interceptors purchased by the opposing DSII
player.
> If it's shot down by
> that's completely beyond his scope--he cannot
Yes, I agree. But that's only the battlefield commander I believe. Not the
Task Force commander which is effectively the DSII player. The DSII player, or
Task Force commander, can influence it in lots of ways from the force design
stage, where elements are being designed and units are being
purchased, right through to the deploying of aerospace and ZAD/ADS or
TADS assets.
> So it's an influence on the battlefield,
We can model it directly and have a more effective game, where the player Task
Force commander has to consider air power and air defence together with
artillery, infantry and tanks. Of course, you could always say that both sides
have no air power and no air defence with no loss of game play. This would
allow more points to spend on ground forces. This would also be realistic, for
example the ground assault by coalition forces into Iraq, where there was no
effective enemy air presence and the friendly air presence wasn't needed.
> Modelling a Theatre Range Air Defence with a physical device like my
But the TF commander, that is the DSII player, has access to these. It
isn't the on-table commander in his command post vehicle. The on-table
commander hasn't got them. The entire on-table force benefits from the
off-board TADS, purchased by the task force commander, that reduces
enemy air power directly by attacking aerospace elements as they come on the
table.
> I'm not talking about the enemy on-table commander, but the friendly
In my Steel Panthers III games, I usually have a complete "ring" of 6 Patriot
launchers surrounding an ammo dump. I find that it's reasonably
effective against enemy air power for the first 4-5 strikes. The
Patriots aren't assigned to an armoured company or brigade, they're just in my
SPIII Task Force. A US Marines formation some years ago would have had
battleship strikes
assigned to it, hopefully on enemy formations! :-). This can be modelled
in DSII as Very Heavy Artillery or Full Thrust orbital artillery. I've
designed a FT:FB frigate sized 20 MASS planetary bombardment monitor. It's
only 66 FT:FB points. If we use the 1 FT point = 100 DSII points ratio, that
works out as about 6,600 DSII points, which is only about twice the price of a
nine gun Heavy Artillery battery, but doesn't run out of ammunition, is
immune to most counter-battery artillery and has a large area of
effect. Sure the planetary bombardment monitor can be countered by
anti-space
defences, just use some aerospace fighters and play a FT:FB space battle over
the DSII table. But there's no need to buy points for a generic
anti-space craft defences unless they're planetary based, just have some
space assets. To counter this, just specify that neither side has space
assets.
> And besides, those things come in batteries--6 Patriot launchers and
Well, I believe that 6 Patriot launchers and one control centre is actually
one system. I've even got a rule on my site for distributing big systems over
several vehicles. So I believe a DSII Patriot equivalent is only about 4000
DSII points. Your version may differ depending on how accurate and deadly you
believe Patriot to be.
If you just want a generic air defence level, the TADS cost of 4000 points is
an ideal starting point in working out what it could be. This is because this
is the cost of a device to implement a generic air defence level across the
DSII table top.
Hope this helps!
> Andrew & Alex wrote:
Don't buy that.:) The man on the scene always has a better picture of his
fight than the man in the rear. Conversely, the man in the rear has a better
picture of how that fight fits into the Big Picture than the man on the scene.
You start trying to get one man to do both, then he can't do either well.
> >> But you may be looking for something that doesn't really exist.
Yeah. Or in a command tank, which is where I usually put him.
> >If not, there are two reasons--either it's got a
> >or it's been shot down.
It all works out to "Shot down".
> >If it's shot down by
You're seeing the DSII player as the overall commander, at Corps or
higher level--I'm seeing him as the batallion commander. Corps COs
don't interfere with how their batallions conduct their fights--or at
least, they shouldn't.
> In my Steel Panthers III games, I usually have a complete "ring"
of 6
> Patriot launchers surrounding an ammo dump. I find that it's
Yeah. Your Steel Panters unit reflects how the Real World works. Sure. Note
that I've been using Task Force to designate a "Task Organized Batallion". But
Patriots are not found on the front
lines--they are generally in the rear with the gear, defending supply
dumps, HQs, ports, airfields...
> A US Marines formation some years ago would have had battleship
Right. But note the way this works--the Battleship is NOT part of the
Marine force. It's somewhere off the table. The Marines call back, and
ASK for it. If it doesn't come, they have no idea why--they may never
find out why. It could be busy flattening something else deep in the enemy's
rear, it could be providing fire suport for the next batallion over, or it
could be fighting for it's life against the entire enemy Navy. No more reason
to model this than there is model the intricacies
of air warfare/air defense. You simply roll the dice and say, "Damn,
that battleship isn't responding!"
> Don't buy that. :)
Well, that is what DSII models! :-)
> Yeah. Your Steel Panters unit reflects how the Real World works.
Having little experience with the US military here in New Zealand, I can't
really say, except from reading books and playing the computer games.
I found Patriot batteries to be effective, so I use them. :-) I'm sure
that other generals will have the same attitude. Use what works, discard the
ineffective.
> Right. But note the way this works--the Battleship is NOT part of the
That's right. It's definitely not part of the on-table force. It's a
supporting force that provides support. It's an off table force that may or
may not be available to the Marine force, depending upon it's availability.
The Marines call back, and
> ASK for it. If it doesn't come, they have no idea why--they may never
Which is what my Limited Availablility rule simulates so well. Take the
example of the 66 point FT:FB orbital bombardment space ship. Spending the
full 6,600 DSII points gets the full attention of the 'ship. Say we wanted to
save some points, and the player only buys 20% availability, which costs only
1,320 points. Whenever the Marines force calls for the ship to fire, roll the
availability dice. If the roll succeeds, the 'ship is available for firing at
targets. If the roll fails, the ship is off doing something else. The marines
don't know why, the on-table commander doesn't know why. The 'ship could
be "flattening something else deep in the enemies rear, it could be providing
fire support for the next battalion over, or it could be fighting for it's
life against the entire enemy navy". This model seems to fit your requirements
exactly!
> No more reason to model this than there is model the intricacies
That's my rule for Limited Availability! Roll that D100, fail to get
01-20 on the dice and say, "Damn, that 'ship isn't responding!" Isn't
this what you want?