I played my first DS2 game last Saturday and had a blast! I had a group of 4
grav tanks flying over cultivated terrain. My opponet had tracked tanks and
had to stay to the roads. I was OK until the Artillery fell.
:-/
But we did have a quesiton. A VTOL in High mode with GMS/H (range 48")
can strike any Air Defence Unit without fear of the Air Defence System (range
36"). Did we miss something? Are there suggestions on how to resolve this?
Thanks in advance,
> At 08:00 AM 1/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
Yes the VTOL is immune from the Air Defense System... His GMSs are subject to
Air Defense and Point Defense fire. I reccommend that you buy
the GMS/air that I posted a while back, or a VTOL with a weapon to
engage the other VTOL...
Gort, Klaatu barada nikto!
> At 08:00 1/27/98, Brian Bell wrote:
> But we did have a quesiton. A VTOL in High mode with GMS/H (range 48")
Put an Area Defence System unit in support of the Zone Air Defense unit to
provide anti-missile protection, perhaps?
> At 08:00 AM 1/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
Agreed, this is a bug that we need to fix. Opinions on how, anyone? Would
simply allowing anti-air systems to engage VTOLs if they are in HIGH
mode do the trick, or would it be too lethal for the VTOLs for game balance?
Player input gratefully received!
> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Ground Zero Games wrote:
Would
> simply allowing anti-air systems to engage VTOLs if they are in HIGH
Why not allow the anti-air system to be used in two different ways:
1) "sweep mode" -- this is the way the ADS currently works.
The ADS is sweeping the skies for targets, and can defend against multiple
attackers.
2) "targeting mode" -- the ADS can only engage one (or two?) targets per
turn, but the range of the defense is doubled (72").
> Agreed, this is a bug that we need to fix. Opinions on how, anyone?
Would
> simply allowing anti-air systems to engage VTOLs if they are in HIGH
Perhaps a 2 prong fix: 1) Make ADS range 48" and allow it to attack High Mode
vehicles
2) Make attacks from/to High mode attack as if 12" further away.
This would increase the utility of ADS and make air vehicles move in closer to
attack (making them vulnerable to counter attack)
> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Rick Rutherford wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Ground Zero Games wrote:
Would
> > simply allowing anti-air systems to engage VTOLs if they are in HIGH
This would, I think, be too lethal and unbalancing. One ADS vehicle in the
middle of the table could ruin the day of ANY Vtol, anywhere on-table.
W/
limited range, the question becomes one of "What _must_ I protect w/ my
one ADS? do I deploy it forward to protect my heavy armour, or to the rear
to defend my artillery/HQ?"
More strategic/tactical thinking is therefore required...a good thing,
in my book.
> Why not allow the anti-air system to be used in two different
This sounds cool. Either take your sensor power and spread it out to cover
360^ and engage multiply attackers at lesser range, or focus your sensors
to swat that Vtol you _have_ to kill, risking other units...
Maybe not doubled range, tho. 72" is 6', which is clear across most tables
I've played on, or very close to it. OTOH, doubling range keeps the math
simpler. All range bands simply double along with it, saving mucking about
w/ fractions, etc
To answer another poster's question regarding Zone Air Defense (ZAD) being
covered by ADS - they're the exact same system, operating in either
short-range anti-missle mode or long-range anti-aircraft mode. (12" and
36" respectively)...
Just my $0.02...
Don't forget you can opportunity fire an ADS as a RFAC/2, which would
give you a longer range to engage single targets. (personally, I think
this should actually be a quad RFAC/2 to simulate the volume of
firepower).
'Neath Southern Skies
*********************
Ortillery, rich man's artillery.
> -----Original Message-----
In a message dated 98-01-28 09:08:38 EST, you write:
> On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Ground Zero Games wrote:
Would
> > simply allowing anti-air systems to engage VTOLs if they are in
Jon,
I've started using an additional anti-air system, the SAM
(surface-to-air
missile). SAM systems use all of the same mechanics to intercept aircraft as
ADS, but with a couple of minor differences. SAM's have a 60" range, count
only red and yellow chits as valid, and cannot intercept incoming missiles.
This has worked well so far...
Brian
Here's my $0.02 on the subject:
> But we did have a quesiton. A VTOL in High mode with GMS/H (range
But did you say the _EXACT_ words???
Hail to the king, baby!
> Agreed, this is a bug that we need to fix. Opinions on how, anyone?
Would
> simply allowing anti-air systems to engage VTOLs if they are in HIGH
> to which Brian Bell wrote:
> Perhaps a 2 prong fix:
Perhaps the 48" range should be restricted to VTOLs in high mode only. I would
expect VTOLs to be slower than aerospace fighters, and hence easier to hit
(justifying the increased range).
> 2) Make attacks from/to High mode attack as if 12" further away.
I'm not sure this is necessary.
> This would increase the utility of ADS and make air vehicles move in
Keep in mind that modern battlefield VTOLs are very vulnerable to
anti-air defence. Just ask any Russian who served in Afghanistan...
Basically I'm trying to say I don't think that game balance would be seriously
effected.
In a message dated 98-01-28 07:00:14 EST, you write:
<< >>But we did have a quesiton. A VTOL in High mode with GMS/H (range
48")
> can strike any Air Defence Unit without fear of the Air Defence
On a modern battlefield A/C flying in the equvilent of high mode is the
target of other aircraft or heavy AAM that cover the battle area from the rear
area (such as HAWK or Patriot).
Prehaps a off the board AAM capability is in order. Treat them as GMSs that
may strike at anything in high mode on the table top.
Alternatively a new weapon system might be needed. AAMs may attack A/C
in high
mode. Agaist A/C red, yellow and green chits count. If used agaist
ground
targets only green count. AAM/L is size 1, has a range of 48" and pulls
2
chits. AAM/H is size 2 has a range of 72" and pulls 3 chits.
> Jon wrote:
> Agreed, this is a bug that we need to fix. Opinions on how, anyone?
Would<
> simply allowing anti-air systems to engage VTOLs if they are in HIGH
> Player input gratefully received!<
Probably extend the range but reduce the amount of targets the ADS can engage
would probably work. As I understand current doctrine the air defense is
supposed to be layered anyway. Division air defense, which has the long range
SAM's and such... Company, which is a mixture of Long range SAM's and cannon,
and medium range
SAM's....
and Local, such as the Defender, (Twin 30mm cannon and 2.75" rocket packs,
mounted on a HUMVee) Short range SAM's (Stingers etc...) and Cannon. I always
thought the ADS was supposed to cover the first two....
IMHO anyway:)
Randy
> Fabet wrote:
I would think that HAWK and Patriot are still relatively close to the forward
area. Things like THAAD (Theater High Altitude Air Defense) would more in the
area you are mentioning.
Hawk and Patriot are used to attack Helos and other lower patrolling aircraft
on divsional levels. With Stinger and Avenger providing manuver unit coverage.
Now the High mode might be valid. But the Patriot is still deployable to
defend areas of the battle field. In DS2 this is small enough to use a unit on
the board. In SG I would think these are off board. THADD (if it ever works)
would be valid off board in DS2 and almost not present in SG.
> Ward Bowman wrote:
> I would think that HAWK and Patriot are still relatively close to
I don't think so. When I was a 24T (Pat. crewman) at any rate we were supposed
to be in the "Corp" area.
> Hawk and Patriot are used to attack Helos and other lower patrolling
In my day Patriot was a USAEUR level assest (32nd ADCOM's next step up was
USAEUR).
> Now the High mode might be valid. But the Patriot is still
Patriot is designed for nailing A/C at over 40K range. If short range
field artillery is allowed to be off board in DSII then some form of ADA
should also be off board.
For that matter, Nike Herc (what Patriot replaced) had a range of over 100K.
> At 18:55 29/01/98 -0600, you wrote:
SNIP
> Patriot is designed for nailing A/C at over 40K range. If short range
How about something along the lines of the air superiority determination in
WRGs 1925-50 rules? Each side spends a number of points to buy a
hoped-for
level of control of the air (Dispute, Obtain and Ensure AS are 3 levels I
recall off-hand). Whenever the opposition has aircraft on table (in
DSII terms, Aerospace or VTOLs in High mode), the player attempts an
intercept, modified by their AS level to try a fighter attack on the opposing
aircraft. For DSII, this could be a FMA opposed roll, and could represent in
abstract the whole top level air defence umbrella (i.e. interceptors as well
as SAMs and heavy AA lasers).
Rob
> At 18:55 29/01/98 -0600, you wrote:
This is very much what the "Air Defence Environment" rules in Stargrunt II
are intended for - an abstract layer of defences that air units must
penetrate before entering the table area; they could probably be
effectively modified to represent the higher-level air defences in a
DSII game (don't have much time to work out the exact mechanics right now, but
this may get some of you thinking....).
Hi all,
I think the simplest way of rectifying the problem would be to extend the
range of ADS against targets in high mode to 48' and keeping the range against
low-level targets the same. Adding new units and weapons is really not
necessary and will only complicate/unbalance the game.
Regards, Mike Jasinski
In a message dated 98-01-29 14:51:23 EST, you write:
<< I would think that HAWK and Patriot are still relatively close to the
forward area. Things like THAAD (Theater High Altitude Air Defense) would more
in the area you are mentioning.
Hawk and Patriot are used to attack Helos and other lower patrolling aircraft
on divsional levels. With Stinger and Avenger providing manuver unit coverage
>>
Hawk was a corp level asset, Patriot a theater level asset (mind you this was
about five years ago). So these type of systems would be off board in DSII.
Chaparral was divisional (now long gone). Avenger is just Stinger on wheels
(there's no increase in range or accuracy). These may be parcelled out to a
battalion task force (a DSII sized battle).
In a message dated 98-01-30 15:37:13 EST, you write:
<< Hi all,
I think the simplest way of rectifying the problem would be to extend the
range of ADS against targets in high mode to 48' and keeping the range against
low-level targets the same. Adding new units and weapons is really not
necessary and will only complicate/unbalance the game.
> [quoted text omitted]
I'm generally an advocate of simple solutions (thats why I love GZG games so
much), but I don't think this will help. It will just become a case of dueling
GMSHs.
> Fabet@aol.com wrote:
...Snip...(JTL)
> I'm generally an advocate of simple solutions (thats why I love GZG
In the case of exactly equal weapons the weapon at the higher level will win
as it will have a longer range range than the lower level weapon. I am not
able to find my rules and only remember that (somewhere in the dark recesses
of my mind) the allow the use of railguns
against anything that it can see. I also remember that they
are considered to have a high volume of fire making them suitable for AA work.
Just to throw another fagot on the fire.
Bye for now,
In a message dated 98-01-31 10:38:30 EST, you write:
<<
I'm generally an advocate of simple solutions (thats why I love GZG games so
much), but I don't think this will help. It will just become a case of dueling
GMSHs. >>
Unless I misread the rules, ADS is not a GMS/H, but a direct-fire
weapon, and ADS fire is resolved *before* the VTOL fire. It would not be a
duel any VTOL would be very keen to enter into unless it had better ECM than
the ADS. It is
not for nothing that air defense systems are a high-priority targets
even today. Once your ground units destroy enemy air defenses, your air units
can attack with relative impunity. That's the essence of combined arms
operations.
Regards, Mike Jasinski
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/1966/
> At 08:58 1/31/98, John Leary wrote:
A quick scan through the rulebook fails to turn up that bit...the description
of MDCs on page 8 does indicate a high volume of fire, but nothing about
hitting anything it can see. The paragraph below on HELs, however, does
indicate that *they* can hit about anything in line of sight, plus they have a
range of 60". So...
Why not develop an AA unit based on a High Energy Laser? They've got the
range, they'd be quick to aim and track (a mirror on a gimbal system is the
main moving part, no bulky turrets or barrels), all you'd need is a sensor
suite sharp enough to pick up on fast-moving targets like aircraft.
Two possibilities: some sort of cost multiplier to a standard ADS to give it
HEL range potentials, or an (expensive) sensor suite attached to any HEL
equipped vehichle that would allow using the main gun to target
aircraft/
high-VTOLs.
I'm assuming the to-hit procedure and damamge would not change, the
expense of the HEL system would be soley for increased range. Optional: keep
the
price of the HEL-ADS the same as standard ADS, but use HEL damage
procedures: red chits only.
Random thoughts late at night... take or discard as you will.
> At 3:49AM Jim 'Jiji' Foster wrote:
> A quick scan through the rulebook fails to turn up that bit...the
This idea I like! It makes sense "scientifically", keeps it simple, and
doesn't force any major rules changes. The only problem would
be in the logic of the mirror/gimbal idea. This works fine for
supermarket style ruby-red lasers, but wouldn't have a chance with
lasers that don't reflect off of mirrors...
> Two possibilities: some sort of cost multiplier to a standard ADS to
IMHO, the first option would be the only way to go. The second
option would change game balance _way_ too much. Imagine a force of
tanks
armed exclusively with class 5 anti-aircraft capable HELs. No aircraft
would survive past turn one! In fact, such a weapon would be so deadly that I
doubt aircraft would exist on such a battlefield.
> I'm assuming the to-hit procedure and damamge would not change, the
Again I would have to go with the first idea. How about the following (for
starters 150% cost):
BASIC = 300
ENH = 450
SUP = 600
> Random thoughts late at night... take or discard as you will.
Must be student. Who else is writing email at four in the morning!?!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> At 20:55 1/31/98, Tony Christney wrote:
> This idea I like! It makes sense "scientifically", keeps it simple,
Well, so I'm a bit weak on high-energy laser theory...short folded tube,
solid state lasing unit, whatever. I'll leave the details to those more
scientifically minded.:)
> Two possibilities: some sort of cost multiplier to a standard ADS to
Well, I guess I imagined that a) it would be so expensive that it would be
tough to make more than one or two tanks in a company ADS capable and b) the
class of laser wouldn't make a difference (just use standard ADS damage.)
> I'm assuming the to-hit procedure and damamge would not change, the
Sounds good to me. So be it!:)
> Random thoughts late at night... take or discard as you will.
Eh? That time stamp must be something generated by the list server...I wrote
that last at just shy of 10PM local...
> On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Tony Christney wrote:
> The second
Very much like Hammer's Slammers. Maybe some of us *want* to change it that
way...
Greetings all, I have been reading the posts on ADA weapons for the last week
with some amusement. When I have judged Dirtside 2, any aircraft and any VTOL
at high
was subject to fire from off-map heavy ADA units. Except in a planetary
invasion scenario, I would think that your Battlegroups on the game table
would have support from off-table higher level ADA, Artillery,and sensor
systems. If one side had space-superiority, the opposing side would be
severely limited in their ability to use any air assets. I really have no
problem making it very difficult for air to operate over the Dirtside 2
battlefield. I am a long-time modern micro-armor player and judge. When
my
Apache's attack a Russian-style Motor Rifle Regiment they have to
contend
with 8 ZSU's, 8 vehicle mounted missile vehicles ( SA-9 or SA-13 ), and
27
LAD equivalents ( SA-7 through -16 ). The writers that have complained
about any increase in range for ADA weapons don't seem to know that the
current tech level LAD, the Stinger, would have a range of 60" in Dirtside 2.
I think that the ADA ranges for Dirtside 2 were shortened for play balance. I
always thought that the ADA rules from the original Dirtside was one of the
best answers to this problem. I was surprised that it wasn't carried over to
Dirtside 2.
each Area Defense vehicle in 36": 3 points ( these were lasers,not RFAC's)
each LAD in 24": 2 points each heavy ADA missile unit: 4 points
total the ADA assets in range of the target VTOL or aircraft to give the ADA
Environment ADA Environment
ECM level of target 1-3 4-6 7-12 13 +
0 5 4 3 2
1 6 5 4 3
2 6 6 5 4
3 6 6 6 5
# on table is # needed on a D6 to hit, # listed or >
if hit, check for result
Die Roll Target Armor
1 2 3 4 5
1 A A N N N
2 X A A N N
3 X X A A N
4 X X X A A
5 X X X X A
6 X X X X X
N= NO EFFECT A=ABORT MISSION X=SHOT DOWN
John Kinder Jkinder@worldnet.att.net " I don't believe there's any problem in
this country, no matter how tough it is, that Americans, when they roll up
their sleeves, can't completely ignore." George Carlin
[quoted original message omitted]
In a message dated 98-02-02 00:44:01 EST, you write:
<< < Unless I misread the rules, ADS is not a GMS/H, but a direct-fire
weapon,
and
ADS fire is resolved *before* the VTOL fire. It would not be a duel any VTOL
would be very keen to enter into unless it had better ECM than the ADS. It
is
not for nothing that air defense systems are a high-priority targets
even today. Once your ground units destroy enemy air defenses, your air units
can attack with relative impunity. That's the essence of combined arms
operations.
> [quoted text omitted]
ADS get unlimited opportunity fire, but the range of ADS is 36 inchs, the
range of GMS/H is 48 inchs. The ADS can only has a chance of taking out
the
missle not the launch platform. A/C in high mode can strike with
immpunity.
> [quoted text omitted]
I wrote this as a follow-up to my earlier post in which I suggested
extending the range of ADS to 48 inches against aircraft in high mode. I still
think this is the simplest and easiest method of adressing the issue of
aircraft invulnerability without introducing "wonder weapons" and unbalancing
the game.
Regards, Mike Jasinski
> Tony Christney wrote:
Although that would be perfectly appropriate for some genres.
In a message dated 98-02-02 09:33:11 EST, you write:
<<
> >Two possibilities: some sort of cost multiplier to a standard ADS to
Although that would be perfectly appropriate for some genres.
> [quoted text omitted]
I agree, but such a rules modification should be part of genre-specific
rules, not generic core rules. The first option offers the most elegant
solution.
[snip]
> I always thought that the ADA rules from the original Dirtside was
Actually, this is in many ways similar to the Air Defence Environment rules in
SGII. It will probably adapt quite well back into DSII.