Hi,
That spoon feeding stuff for WWII just made me think the same apply to SF:
One comment of my opponent for my first DS2 game was that the game lack army
list. I think this can be something of interrest to add to the game. It will
allow to have different "Feel" for a specific game: instead of all player
creating the best vehicule possible, they will instead have to buy some from a
list, each list having some advantage and disadvantage.
Also, when trying to convert player from other gameset, you could just use a
list that fit best the race they like to play in their other game. Ex: If we
had a "Stealthy and Fast guys" list, you could just convert any Evil empire
eldar player more easily.
Each list could have some restriction on the number of vehicule type allowed
(ex: you need to have X vehicule of a given type to have Y vehicule of
another). There could even be some discount for the price of some vehicule, so
unpopular weapons system could all be used. Even some special troop if it fit
nicely (I saw a webpage with some other movement type for infantry like Jump
and the like, this could be something to use).
I would like to have some suggestion about what combination could make
interresting list.
Some generic idea to give a start. Lots of things need to be added like
prefered weapons, ecm level, gms, etc ( My DS2 experience is quite limited for
now). Feel free to find better name as well!
"Grav guys": Most of their unit are grav and fast. They might have less than
optimal armor since they will use speed to get better position than their
ennemy.
"Crap guys": Those have lots of cheap vehicule. That race might have a "clone
factory" somewhere, so they don't care if they loose lots of unit (or they
might just have a poor tech level). They have quantitie over quality.
"Big infantry transport guys": Those have big infantry transport with lots of
armour (like the droid carrier tank in StarWars EP1) and of course, lots of
infantry. Drop the grunt and let them do the dirty work.
"Solid guys": Those have slow and very well armored vehicule. They should last
a bit longer than normal under fire. Maybe not a lot of infantry for those.
Of course, the next step will be to create vehicule stat and all the stuff...
In the end, each list should be a bit versatile so list A won't crush list B
each game. However, they must have enough distinction to affect the stratgie
use by the player using them.
I'm just throwing idea. If enough people are interrested, that could became a
good project to put on the web.
Army lists are a nice idea but they tend to fall down in practice. When DS2
was first published I started trying to write an army list for it based on
popular sci-fi novels. The problem was (with one or two exceptions) that
such lists were just plain boring. Sci-fi writers seem to like having
armed forces that think that a particular weapon is a "killer" and have
nothing else. Take "Starship Troopers" for instance. Fine if you want an army
that consists of nothing but PA but how boring to play would such an army be?
The strength of DS2 is in the subtle interactions of different weapon systems
and defences. There are not very many novels where you will find that sort of
army. David Drake's Hammers Slammers series are a good exception. There's even
an orbat in one of the books. Only trouble is their opponents sadly fall into
the "boring" category. So you can put together a nice DS2 Slammers army, but
then who do they fight?
The best approach would be to design an army around particular models you
like. I have a GEV army based around the Slammer Heavy Hover Tank and the
Gauntlet APC from GZG's Dirtside Miniatures range. Generate the stats for each
type of vehicle that your army could have. Try and be consistent, for example
most vehicles might be GEV with a few support vehicles either tracked or
wheeled. Or you could have an entirely Grav based army. Then design a TO&E for
your army based on these vehicles. Job done!
Hope that helps Mike
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> --- Mike Elliott <Mike.Elliott@steria.co.uk> wrote:
I'm deleriously happy with mine. I mean insane
gibbering-in-the-corner-type happy. Of course, the
psychologists reduced my medication dosage and that might be part of it...
> Generate the stats for
If you do this, then people accuse you of megalomania
and obsessive-compulsive behavior, and lots of other
not-nice things. :)
> --- Yves Lefebvre <ivanohe@abacom.com> wrote:
> It will allow to have different "Feel" for a
Ummmm... the permutations of the vehicles possible are functionally endless
(I'm sure OO could calculate the number of all possible variations, but I'm
frankly not inerested). Limiting them is BAD.
Besides, good tactics can overcome mediocre vehicle designs. It can't override
outright BAD decisions
(like multiple HEL/1s on a main battle tank). Fer
instance, OO has conclusively "proven" that stealth is
a bad idea. However, it fits in with the higher-tech
outlook of my Romans (as well as a sensitivity to
casualties--limited number of good Greeks and
Armenians to go around) so I keep using it. I win anyway.
Of course, IIRC he also claims I use an underpriced fire control system.:)
> Also, when trying to convert player from other
So how do you handle different doctrines and organizational structures?
Stealthy and Fast guys
that use Sov-style organizational structures are going
to be vastly different from Stealthy and Fast guys
using UK-style organization.
> Each list could have some restriction on the number
Why? That's straight up silly.
Suppose the force you're playing is an adhoc kampfgruppe built around an AA
battery with odds and
sods from everything from militia horse-mounted scouts
to a trio of heavy tanks scrounged from a vehicle repair depot and crewed by
maintinence personnel?
> "Big infantry transport guys" : Those have big
Eaten for Lunch. Big infantry transports = lots and lots of very dead
infantrymen. Plus they have little to no antiarmor capability or ability to
attack anything. Purely defensive.
John said:
> If you do this, then people accuse you of megalomania
I'm sorry? There's something wrong with megalomania and obsessive compulsive
behavior?
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
Allegedly. I'm too close to the issue to be subjective.
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- Don M <dmaddox1@hot.rr.com> wrote:
> > --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
Wasn't someone just complaining about the s/n ratio
occasionally dropping a bit low? Aren't you ashamed of yourself??
John
This from a guy with SENATUS POPULUSQUE ROMANUS permanently affixed! Oh the
shame of it...Just don't know how I go on..)
> --- Don M <dmaddox1@hot.rr.com> wrote:
What's my personal taste in body art got to do with the signal noise ratio on
this mailing list??
BTW, it's Populii Qua Roma...
[quoted original message omitted]
> On 9-Aug-02 at 19:38, John Atkinson (johnmatkinson@yahoo.com) wrote:
You mean that the GEV based Battalion I am working on is goint to mean I'm
obsessive or compulsive? I've already been accused of psychotic behavior and
being overbearing as well as several things not mentionable on a family
oriented list. I guess my mental state deteriorates as I get older.:)
> --- Roger Books <books@jumpspace.net> wrote:
No, a battalioni is OK. It's when you start figuring
out the corps-level support units that people start
saying nasty things about your mental state.
> At 08:40 PM 09/08/2002 +0100, you wrote:
that
> such lists were just plain boring. Sci-fi writers seem to like having
Good point. I think the best will be to have "starcraft" like list, were each
have some chance about other. When you just want to do a pick up game (instead
of a scenario), the list can help to have an idea of what your opponent might
field. Like in Full Thrust, if you know your opponent will bring 1000pts of
Kra'Vak, at least you have an idea of what kind of ship you should select from
your race. And when you are a bit lazzy, you can just throw an army more
quickly.
> The best approach would be to design an army around particular models
Right now, I'm trying to collect as many vehicule type I can, to be able to
field any kind of army. I don't go as far as having each type of gun, but at
least to have track, wheel, grav and so on with some size variation. That's
why I'm after some sort of list or list of TO&E.
> Hope that helps
Well, any word from one of the designer of such a great game can only help!
Thanks,
> It will allow to have different "Feel" for a
The list should not be a replacement for the construction system if people
want to spend the time needed to go the DIY way.
> Besides, good tactics can overcome mediocre vehicle
If the doctrine are very different, you can create a new list. Anyway, I see
this more as a way to give new player some material to start gaming
right out of the box and for pick-up game. That and lots of scenario
will help (If there is a scenario supplement one day for SG2 or DS2, I'll get
one as soon as I can!)
Once you're at the stage of handling different doctrine and structure, you
can do it on your own and of course, be accused of obsessive-compulsive
behavior:)
> Each list could have some restriction on the number
I guess they need to have some other vehicule to do something (I was not
seeing them with just infantry transport). Might also give GMS to PA squads.
If using an urban setting, how much it can improve infantry heavy troops as
opposed to be in non-urban zone?
> --- Yves Lefebvre <ivanohe@abacom.com> wrote:
> The list should not be a replacement for the
A couple problems present themselves. The most
obvious is gamers using 'non-standard' minis. For
instance, Scotia, OGRE, Fortress Figures, Renegade Legion, Epic, modern,
Battletech, WWII, &ct. have all made themselves seen on my DSII table. Plus
screwy homebuilds and conversions.
If you want to throw together army lists for generic unnamed powers, feel free
to. However, I've done so damn many DSII army lists it's ridiculous (NRE, Free
Ukrainians, New Tblisi, Greater Serbians, New Jordan, New Israel, Alarishi
Empire, one of the options out there for the Islamic Federation) and am
working on the most ambitious of them all, the ESU. I'm not doing generic ones
also.
> If the doctrine are very different, you can create a
YMMV, but I find that the mass of historical gaming scenarios I have serves
quite adequately. Just replace IJN Marines with, say, IC Raiders and convert
the Aussies to GEV-mounted troops. To pick an example
at random.
> Once you're at the stage of handling different
Doctrine drives both organizational structure and equipment procurement
choices. Or you end up with
some crazy-quilt mess that falls apart in combat.
> I guess they need to have some other vehicule to do
GMS is defensive weapon.
> If using an urban setting, how much it can improve
Depends on what your opponent has for an ROE. If you're willing to level the
city you can take it away from defenders with acceptable casualties. But in
general, it can multiply the effectiveness of defending infantry by as much as
an order of magnitude. I once played a scenario with a Roman light infantry
company defending against an ad hoc armored batallion. Lost a platoon,
inflicted about 40% casualties on the attackers, and delayed them for almost 3
hours before withdrawing across the only remaining bridge and blowing it
skyhigh. But my opponent made some mistakes (too cautious) and I got lucky as
well.