Greetings, One of the things that I have noticed in DS2 games is a distinct
lack of
Sci-Fi flavor to most of the games (I suspect the same would hold true
for SG2). Most of the DS2 games could just as easily be accomplished by WW2
tanks and troops. Yes there are differences. But most of them are not
different enough to add a SF flavor. Hover & Grav units are just faster
(unless near open water). HELs, DFFGs, etc. could just as easily be different
types of conventional shells. Power Armor is just infantry with body armor.
SG2 may not have this problem as Power Armor is much tougher in SG2.
(I
have not played enough to tell). Ogre and Battletech do not have this problem
because they step outside
what would be considered possible (Indestructible Tank/Giant Robots).
And I am not saying it is the entirely the problem of the DS2 game design. It
was designed to be generic, and therefore it conforms to known ideas and
stretches belief less than some other games. I am also not saying that it was
entirely the fault of the scenario designer either. I have played games where
there was a good SF flavor. However, these games usually involved aliens or an
exotic environment (Moonbase Xi). I would like some input on how to create a
greater SF flavor to these games other than by using aliens or exotic
environments.
Thanks,
> Greetings, One of the things that I have noticed in DS2 games is a
As you might expect in a game based on the philosphy that it's the man not the
gun which is important.
The Hammer's Slammers books could be set at almost any period in history.
> Ogre and Battletech do not have this problem because they step
At which point they become fantasy rather than SF. ;-)
> I would like some input on how to create a greater SF flavor to
I would say that it really depends on what sort of SF you want to simulate. Do
you need Psi powers? Cyborgs? Nanotech? Teleport? Time Travel?
> I would like some input on how to create a greater SF flavor to
Besides actions in vacuum, high or low gravity and very stange terain. One
might wish to look at the normal things that have changed in warfare over time
such as: weapons range (always a problem with minis) Fire power (overkill
plus) Weapon Accuracy and precision Troop and vehicle protection (Armour,
Powered Sheilds, stealth) Mobility (new ways to get around faster and easier)
communication detection The other thing that can change is the nature of the
troops themselves.
With these factors to look at we have a large of choice of flavors.
> "Bell, Brian K" wrote:
> Greetings,
Which I think is one of the strengths of both games. It uses real tactics and
stresses the importance of the man behind the gun.
> Yes there are differences. But most of them are not different enough
But that is a real difference in many scenarios. Try Operation Market Garden
historically. Then run it through with grav tanks using DSII. You get
completely different tactics when bridges are no longer choke points.
> HELs, DFFGs, etc. could just as easily be different types of
Right, but infantry wasn't running around with body armor in WWII. Already it
gives a different feel, because you have troops that are inherently tougher
than others.
> SG2 may not have this problem as Power Armor is much tougher in SG2.
(I
> have not played enough to tell).
Don't forget, if you have fast power armor, you can really move across
terrain. Again, this is a completely different feel from WWII.
> Ogre and Battletech do not have this problem because they step
If you want those features in your games, design the scenarios so that they
are included. The focus of SGII is on infantry, though. So any other scenario
focus is going to be a mismatch. DSII focuses on the tank platoon, so a
similar caveat applies. It can be done, though. For SGII, I'm currently
working on a scenario that has a big hovertank (class 5) moving through a
town. The defenders have a few tank killers, but they do not have the mobility
of the hover tank. Of course, the hovertank has infantry support, so it's not
as simple as rushing the hovertank with all of your tank killers.
> And I am not saying it is the entirely the problem of the DS2 game
Right, but that also leaves room for you to stretch your belief as far as it
will go. Nothing in the rules prevents you from building a scenario with
unique features and unbelievable weapons or vehicles.
> I am also not saying that it was entirely the fault of the scenario
Yes, these are some simple ways to drive home the fact that "we're not in
Kansas." "Xi" was a great example of an exotic environment taken to the
extreme. It also looked great, btw.
> I would like some input on how to create a greater SF flavor to
OK, what I've done in my SGII games (I haven't started gaming DSII on my own.)
is to set up situations that simply wouldn't have occurred in historical
settings, or at least were extremely unlikely. In SGII, I figure most of the
supply lines for the aggressor are not on the ground. If they are attacking
the planet with ground forces, I'm assuming they
have control of near-orbit and drop a great deal of the supplies
directly to the companies and battalions in the field. Consequently, many of
my scenarios center around isolated units securing a good drop or landing zone
for resupply. I also have an inordinate number of scenarios where the supplies
missed the drop zone and two squads or platoons are rushing to get the
supplies. OK, I admit,
it's not a heavy sci-fi feel, but it's not very historical, either.
Another feature of the sci-fi setting is that most units will be
spread thin and many will not have the luxury of being supported by artillery.
This is just
a consquence of the greater mobility in the sci-fi setting. In a WWII
game, it
would be unusual if you didn't have arty support, but in DSII/SGII, I
can see units moving out of arty range on a regular basis. Even if you control
near orbit, there's no guarantee they can swing the ortillery platform around
in time to help you, even if it is available. But beyond those specific
scenario design parameters, there are also the different types and mixes of
troops. Even in the GZG universe, there is a different feel if you're running
a NAC Royal Marines platoon or FSE Colonial Legion platoon. Both of them run
very different from historicals. However, once again, the systems were
designed with modern combat in mind, so you're never going to stray too far
that model.
Brian, I agree with what you're saying, though. There is a sci-fi
flavor to
DSII/SGII, but it is not as heavy as some of the competition. You might
try
designing more EW units into your scenarios. Nothing screams sci-fi
more than an EW, ECM, ECCM, ECCCM, ECCCCM duel. <g>
-Mike
> Brian Bell wrote:
:
> I would like some input on how to create a greater SF flavor to these
I think what the players see makes the biggest difference. If you field a
bunch of WWII tanks on the play field it will look like a WWII battle. If
you use kit-bashed tanks (mixing parts of WWII or other vehicles) or
sci-fi
minis, you will have a different picture. I never found the rules to be
limiting, but the two complement each other.
Mike
Yes, my statement was not a criticism of the game. The game is great and the
flexibility of a generic system is a huge plus. I was just looking for ways of
increasing the SF feel.
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://membes.xoom.com/rlyehable/ds2/
> "Bell, Brian K" wrote:
> Yes, my statement was not a criticism of the game. The game is great
I didn't take what you said as a criticism of the game. Wher I mentioned some
aspects of the rules or established background I only meant to point out
some areas that could be used as a focus for increasing the sci-fi feel
of the systems.
-Mike
> At 08:30 AM 1/25/00 -0500, you wrote:
(I
> have not played enough to tell).
I've been thinking about this for most of the day, and I haven't come up with
much. A few thoughts, though....
Get rid of grav as a mode of movement. Instead, give your grav tanks VTOL as
their movement style. Flying tanks aren't uncommon in the literature, and it's
certainly not something that you see these days.
Use a lot of Class 1 and 2 walkers. Again, not something that you see on any
modern battlefields.
Let certain troops move by jumping where appropriate -- representing
jetpacks, or personal anti-gravity units.
Robot troops. You can't go wrong with robots. Ever.
And that's all that I could come up with.
> One of the things that I have noticed in DS2 games is a
I have read, not played, DS2, and don't yet own SG2, but I have a few
suggestions ("all free and all worth what you paid for
them").
Let us consider what factors would be "more SF in flavor":
a) exotic terrain--battles on ice caps, giant redwood forests,
lunar surface, etc. This could include different atmospheres and gravity as
well.
b) add battlefield drones/robots--not necessarily just the
Ogres, but size 1 scouts, for example. c) aliens with a significantly
different psychology, requiring house rules for different morale and
leadership effects d) equipment which is not presently feasible such as combat
walkers
No doubt there are others, but the above parameters should get you started. If
you play "Tanks and infantry mix it up in Western Europe" then yes, it's going
to feel like WW2. So play "combat walker company engagement in the ice
crevasses" or
"heroic human militia in hover-jeeps tackle Axorc cyberscorpion"
or something that changes one or more of the parameters.
I'm reminded of a musical instrument. When you play certain works on it, it's
a violin; play others on it, it's a fiddle. It's not the instrument that
changes, it's how it's played.
wrote:
> OK, what I've done in my SGII games (I haven't started gaming DSII
This is just
> a consquence of the greater mobility in the sci-fi setting. In a WWII
However,
> once again, the systems were designed with modern combat in mind, so
> -Mike
These scenarios sound really interesting. Are they on the Web somewhere, or
could you post them to this list?
Mike Elliott
> Laserlight wrote:
Heh. I remember in SPI's StarSoldier an amusing scenario called "Assault on
Zulu Asteroid".
> Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
> Laserlight wrote:
Over the past year my gaming club ran a game at several shows based on the
surface of a small asteroid. We assumed that the asteroid was a
cuboid and 'unwrapped' the surface into six two-foot squares, one for
each face of the asteroid. Each edge was colour coded so that the relationship
between faces was immediately obvious. A figure could always see all of the
face he was standing on. If a figure stood within
2" of an edge then he could see halfway across the adjoining face - so
if a figure was within 2" of a corner he could see halfway across two
adjoining faces.
We don't claim credit for this idea - it was published in one of the UK
gaming mags a while back (but I'm afraid I don't remember the author so I
can't credit him).
I have a fuzzy recollection, perhaps already mentioned on this list, of a game
where the asteroid was in fact a 'donut', and you could be walking on a wall
of the 'hole', and get shot from above.
I think it was in a mini/micro, perhaps one of the Task Force Games
of long ago and far away...
Damn, once again, I'VE gone more off-topic than anyone on a thread.
The_Beast
Not off topic at all. Both of these ideas sound like a good game for FMA
Skirmish. Especially at a convention. Get a large intertube and suspend it
from the celing. Use green army men (preferably 15mm) and some strong tape to
tape them to the intertube. Then go at it.
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/gzg/
-----
[quoted original message omitted]
I think it was a Metagaming microgame called Black Hole:)
> -----Original Message-----
> Mike.Elliott@bull.co.uk wrote:
> Michael Sarno wrote:
I haven't developed any of the scenarios enough to post them to my web site.
However, as they become ready, they will be added to the vault of my eGroups
GZG scenarios discussion list
(http://www.egroups.com/group/gzg/info.html).
-Mike
In a message dated 1/26/2000 7:14:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> Brian_Bell@dscc.dla.mil writes:
> Not off topic at all.
Then
> go at it.
Now it you could just do something like the Battleroom from Ender's
Game...
-Stephen
P.S. Cool idea, something that I will have to try out.