I'm working on a scenario for DS which involves one side making a penetration
attack through a mine field to take a crossing point on a river. The mine
field is represented by a 3:1 mix of mine and dummy
counters. According to the rules pre-laid mine
counters should be placed face down and only turned over once an element comes
within the 2 inches of the counter.
So the question is, should a unit be able to discover if the counter is a
dummy marker (or not) without running through the minefield?
How does it work in the Real World? Is it possible
for a non-specialist unit to discover a mine field
before they start hitting mines? Or is it possible for a VTOL to spot a
minefield?
> --- Jakim Friant <jmodule@yahoo.com> wrote:
That's a really low density. What's the depth? A disrupt minefield should have
a PE of about.5.
> So the question is, should a unit be able to
I'll say yes, BUT.
> How does it work in the Real World? Is it possible
Sure. Surface-laid mines are visible if you know what
you're looking for and get lucky. Tilt-rod mines are
blindingly obvious. And even buried mines have indicators. The problem comes
in noticing those indicators in combat. The other problem comes in telling
whether it's a real mine or not. I mean, are
those tilt-rods, or straightened coat hangers stuck in
the ground?
VTOLs might spot minefields, but they couldn't tell a 'dummy' field from a
live one.
It comes down to terrain, skill with which the mines
were camoflaged, emphasis put on counter-mine training
in the attacker's maneuver forces, exact type of mine, and luck.
> --- John Atkinson wrote:
Density? PB? I have no clue about that... I was just going by the rules that
say a mine counter marks a
4-inch diameter area. So an element would have to be
within 2 inches of the counter to be considered in the mine field.
> > So the question is, should a unit be able to
[SNIP]
Going by the rest of your description (and after looking at the rules again)
it would seem that an engineer unit would be needed to determine for sure if a
mine field was live or not (and to make disarming attempt if it was live).
I think it is sufficient to model the other types of discovery just by have a
counter on the table in the first place.
Thanks for the insight, JF
Jakim said:
> looking at the rules again) it would seem that an
<g> no, some nations can determine whether a minefield is live or not by using
trash infantry, civilians, etc
> At 2:12 PM -0400 9/26/02, laserlight@quixnet.net wrote:
A false field is sometimes made by plowing it up and placing a few real mines
in obvious places as a means of making it look like a real field. I'm sure
John can explain further.
The send a few civies into the minefield to see if it's real or not could
result in a number of false positives.
I said:
> ><g> no, some nations can determine whether a minefield is live or
Ryan said:
> A false field is sometimes made by plowing it up and placing a few
Easily solved. Send more civilians. If it's not real, you'll find out; if it
is real, well, you were going to clear it anyway.
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> A false field is sometimes made by plowing it up and
> --- Jakim Friant <jmodule@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > That's a really low density. What's the depth?
Engineer-speak.
Density = # mines per meter of front.
PE = Probability of Encounter. The odds that a tank driving a straight line
through the minefield would hit a mine. 1 in 4 real:dummy ratio means that for
a minefield one row of counters thick, you'd have a.25 PE which in my book
counts as little worse than a
phony minefield anyway. I'd breach it in-stride using
maneuver elements.
> Going by the rest of your description (and after
No, anyone can tell if it's live. Only engineers can do so safely (ie from a
distance).
Also note that it would be breaching, not disarming. Disarming is for EOD
types. We breach.
> I think it is sufficient to model the other types of
True, that.