Hi
It's been mentioned that a lot of time was spent making sure that FB1-2
weapons were balanced. I wondered if the same had been done or considered for
DS2. The reason I ask, one of the first DS2 games I played I fielded a
mixed force of Hi-tech AFV (superior FC, superior ECM and lots of
stealth) it was 22 vehicles for 8000 points. my opponent concentrated on low
tech
tanks with big guns, he had 60+. So although I could in theory hit him
at longer ranges he had so many vehicles that he could absorb the losses,
close the range and overwhelm me with weapons fire. The cost of the superior
systems and stealth did not seem to balance having a overwhelming number of
guns.
> Tony wrote:
I believe not.
> The reason I ask, one of the first DS2 games I played I fielded a
That's right. Low tech versus High tech doesn't seem to work out well points
wise in DSII. The points cost for stealth, I believe, should be reduced.
Another modification is for better quality FC to allow _more_ shots
of the main gun per activation of the element. For example:
Basic = 1 (standard amount) Enhanced = 2 Superior = 4 Brilliant (D12) = 8
To take advantage of these extra shots, your _entire_ force must be
designed to this level of sophistication. For example, all GMS must be at this
level
of FC, as must ADS/ZAD, PDS and ECM, etc.
Caution: the above rule hasn't been playtested.
Opinions, contrary or other wise, welcomed.
I like the idea of higher rates of fire for the increase in FC but this might
over balance a bit?....perhaps the approach of allowing EITHER multiple shots
but rolling a FC dice lower, or using the higher FC dice but only the one
shot? Example...
> Basic = 1
In any event, if Tony hasn't also Up Armoured then in a straight slugging
match LoTek will always win....At odds of 5 to1 HiTek has to hit every time,
LoTek only has to hit once.....
Try the tactic of hitting and pulling back to maintain your advantage of
range? I know it's easy for me to say coz I wasn't there; still.....
We did a similar comparison in SG prior to a competition using a points system
I believe Mr Pournelle proposed...for a standard Regular NAC Platoon of 4 8
man Squads the equivalent Lotek were 10 squads of 6 men with only ARs.....the
NAC didn't stand a chance; once the LoTek started piling Suppressions on it
was end of story.
Cheers,
Owen G
> -----Original Message-----
RE: DS2 BalanceHi Like Owen Glover and Andrew Martin, I also thought of the
multiple shots using the same mechanism as ADS trying to shoot down multiple
missiles
(I
also think ADS is overpriced it should be 50/100/150). You reduce the
die type for each additional target after the first, so if you had Superior FC
firing at close range you would roll d12 for 1 target, if there were 2
targets, d10 for each, d8s for 3 targets, d6s with 4 targets and the maximum
of 5 targets you would roll d4s. An alternative way would be to roll d12 for
the first target, d10 for the 2nd, d8 for the 3rd etc. Although that feels
more like what would happen in opportunity fire Andrew also said
> That's right. Low tech versus High tech doesn't seem to work
I think stealth should be 5x Vehicle class size per level of stealth Comments?
> At 09:57 PM 4/23/00 +1000, you wrote:
The extra shots are interesting. I will have to try that next time I play DS.
Does anyone have any information as to if this is borne out in real life? Is
the ROF of a M1A2 double that of a comparible WWII tank?
Example... > Basic = 1
> Enhanced = 2
Also, were any infantry used by either side? Engineering vehicles? Artillery?
> From: "Glover, Owen" <oglover@museum.vic.gov.au>
This is very similar to the system used in the Star Wars RPG, where you have a
certain number of dice to roll per skill, and you knock off one die for each
action greater than one that you take in a turn (For instance: Your
character has a skill of 5d6 with his blaster. If he fires 1nce, he rolls 5d6.
if he fires twice, or takes another action and fires once, he rolls
4d6, etc.)
> In any event, if Tony hasn't also Up Armoured then in a straight
Suppressions, as you know, are not part of DS, and the Under Fire rule is
not as prohibitive. However, I agree with you that in a Stand-up fight,
Low Tech has the advantage. Also, I agree with your suggestion of using tech
advantage to maintain range advantage. However, I'd say you didn't go far
enough. The High-Tech player has to use his brains to utilize his
advantages, not just in range. A low-tech player merely has to get
close enough to overwhelm his opponent.
I'd suggest the Hitek side also needs to become an ardent disciple of
well-coordinated combined arms tactics, as well. To rely on only one
type
of vehicle/weapon system would be suicide, because as soon as that
system's advantages are nullified by the situation, you're sunk. In the
original
post, all that was mentioned was how many tanks the hitek player could
afford. What about his infantry? Arty? Air support/helo gunships? One
thought that struck me was that if the enemy is lo-tech, and relying on
cheap MBT's, he can't have much in the way of ADS/PDS/ECM - how much GMS
armed infantry support did you have? How many other threats did you show him
in order to take pressure off your tanks? As Owen has pointed out, there's
no advantage to being hi-tech if you just sit there and slug it out -
you'll eventually be overwhelmed. But if you keep the enemy on his toes, keep
him guessing HOW you're going to hit him next, you've got a shot.
G'day guys,
As Owen has pointed out, there's
> no advantage to being hi-tech if you just sit there and slug it out -
> eventually be overwhelmed. But if you keep the enemy on his toes, keep
While not exactly your run of the mill DS force, the Daleks do suffer GREATLY
from this hitech vs lowtech problem. So far we haven't tried to mitigate it
via any rule changes (though the extra shots do sound promising) I've just had
to learn to cope with the fact if I run them I don't win a lot <but then I've
had a lot of practice at that;)>. So far I figured out that:
a) I've got to be VERY aggressive if I'm using such a high tech force, rip in
and grab the objectives flat chat before the low tech forces get a chance to
react and then call it over then and not get greedy and wait for that one
extra objective (or the scales get tipped). b) Chose targets very carefully,
you may not have your (few) vehicles for long so while you've got them use
them effectively (but then I guess that's just common military sense)
c) Use ortillery/artillery to slow them down (especially smoke, I took
this a step further by running my pyroflame Daleks out as front line setting
fire to the country side as they pass and so set up a screen I can try and
hide behind a bit), once again probably common sense. d) If you do have to
slug it out for a particular spot, let the infantry (well in my case plain old
Daleks) do all the hard work (take longer to kill than vehicles), though
supporting them with a few well placed vehicles in cover is a lot of help. e)
Pepper your squads with special teams carying LADs or Engineering teams (LADs
because it severly curtails the "I'll just DFO you out of existence tactic"
and Engineering as they double as my medics).
Do know if that's any help, but there you go. Having said that I'd love to
see more ideas on recosting DS/fiddling-with-tech-tree (says she who's
main walkers cost about 740 to 1530pts).
Cheers
Beth
Actually, the M4 (WWII) had a higher rate of fire (lighter rounds) than the
M1A2, although rate of fire is VERY dependent on the training of the crew. The
M1A2's advantages are vastly superior armor which the WWII tank could not
penetrate, even from the flank, about ten times the effective range and a much
higher hit probability (a combination of the gun and the fire control system)
and far superior sensors (thermal imaging). On yeah, and it's muuch faster and
has a much higher acceleration due to the turbine. It's no exaggeration to say
a platoon of M1A2 tanks could annihilate an entire WWII armored division,
probably without taking a single casualty.
[quoted original message omitted]
This was asked
> In the original
I only had 4 MBTs with MDC/3 and GMS(H) and 2 ADS (enhanced) on the same
chassis. The other 14 IFV were all based around a different chassis. I
designed the to face various threats. The basic APC had GMS(L), superior ECM,
LAD and APSW as standard. It had room for 2 fireteams and carried a
HEL/1 mainly for anti-personnel use but also for long range 'plinking'.
I platoon of 4 APCs. Another 4 vehicle unit was ARVs that replaced the HEL
with a DFFG/2 and carried 1 team. The 4 ATVs carried 3 GMS(H) in a box
launcher on top. The HQ unit was in two vehicles that did not have any weapon
systems except LAD and APSW, as most of their capacity was taken up with C3
equipment but there was room for 1 team in each vehicle. 1 also had 2 CASEVAC
(VTOL). All vehicles were size 3, grav mobility with 2 levels of stealth. The
MBTs and ADS units had armour 3 but I thought it strange for APC type vehicles
to have the same level of armour as the MBTs so I only gave them armour 2 (bad
idea!!).
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:57:36 +1000 Beth Fulton
> <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> writes:
> a) I've got to be VERY aggressive if I'm using such a high tech force,
"Common sense" often overlooked in games and real life.
> b) Chose targets very carefully, you may not have your (few) vehicles
Noted.
> c) Use ortillery/artillery to slow them down (especially smoke, I took
Noted.
> d) If you do have to slug it out for a particular spot, let the
MORE "common sense".
> e) Pepper your squads with special teams carying LADs or Engineering
Excellent. Especially the engineers doubling as medics. I LOVE engineers,
especially using them in other then 'expensive infantry' units. Doubling as
your medics, I like that.
> Do know if that's any help, but there you go. Having said that I'd
> Brian Bilderback wrote:
Your character has a skill of 5d6 with his blaster. If he fires 1nce, he rolls
5d6. if he fires twice, or takes another action and fires once, he rolls 4d6,
etc.)
I've been using this mechanic a lot in various systems, including DSII,
Fudge and FMA. You'll see it best in my multiple-shot rule on my site.