G'day,
Here's a message from Brian B for you to comment on.
Cheers
Beth
---------- Brian B Dirtisde Query ----------------------------------
"I ran across some Babylon 5 Wars fighter figures -- Centauri fighters,
I believe. They have downswept wings that look like a crescent moon
from above, a sharply tapered cockpit/fuselage, and a very wide flat
tail. They look a lot like a falcon or hawk, and I've decided to use
them as the basis for a 6mm "Stargate" force -- a la both the original
movie and the SG-1 show. My aim is to make them reflect the show, and
as such, my force composition will intentionally have the flaws that the
forces in the show have -- namely poor range, a lack of weapon
diversity, etc.
Based on the nature of the "Energy" weapons (staffs, etc.,) that the Go'auld
(sp?) and their minions use, I figure that DFFG's replicate them
well -- bolts of explosive "energy", short range. So this is what I
have so far:
Ja'far troops: Veteran (Too poor of shots to merit elite, too disciplined to
merit green) regulars, each platoon consists of 8 elements: 1 APSW, 1 LADS, 6
assault.
Anubis-headed troops: Veteran PA, 4 stands, all rifle elements
Horus fighter: Class 3 fighter, armor 1, stealth 2, 2xDFFG 3
I've never seen any other combat vehicles in the show, so if anyone has seen
anything I'm missing, I'm open to suggestions
Bear in mind, this force is intended to replicate the show, and not be
tactically viable.
Thanks,
Brian B"
On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 08:28:03AM +1000, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote for
Brian B:
> I've never seen any other combat vehicles in the show, so if anyone has
They had a couple of fixed turrets for the S2/S3 cliffhanger - they
didn't look all that impressive, but they seemed to be sudden death to
infantry. Model as DFFGs of some sort, I guess.
The Jaffa are mainly held back by the total lack of sights on their weapons, I
think...
You might want to consider the Al'kesh bomber - bigger, less
manoeuvreable but more heavily-armoured and armed than the fighters.
http://www.gateworld.net/omnipedia/ships/a/alkesh.shtml
That's about it for Goa'uld designs - if a mothership appears on the DS
board, it'll be as a scenario goal not a combatant.
R
> ---------- Brian B Dirtisde Query ----------------------------------
Ahhh, the infamous "why can't they hit the broadside of a barn with a
staff weapon?" (8-) (There was an episode where they actually
addressed that, and basically called the staff weapon a weapon of terror,
while the P90 was a weapon of war. It was a great scene.
5th season I think, when SG-1 was training the renegade Ja'fa).
> Ja'far troops: Veteran (Too poor of shots to merit elite, too
I would actually have them as non-PA troops -- the armour (at least,
as demonstrated on the show) is about equal to ballastic weapons for both
helmeted and unhelmeted guards, but both appear equally useless against staff
weapons or Zat guns. As well, there's no indication that the armour gives any
sort of strength amplification.
> Horus fighter: Class 3 fighter, armor 1, stealth 2, 2xDFFG 3
Somebody already mentioned the Al'kesh bomber. Jaffa don't have any ground
vehicles that we've seen on the show (up to the end of Season 6, Season 7
hasn't aired in Canada yet, the
buggers.) They do have ground emplacement weapons, the
equivalent of those small anti-tank guns, but I don't think
anybody's ever seen if they were mobile or not.
If you can find a copy to thumb through, the Stargate SG-1 RPG
might provide some good ideas.
http://www.stargatesg1rpg.com/products.html
JGH
> On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 12:28:25AM -0400, Jerry Han wrote:
> Ahhh, the infamous "why can't they hit the broadside of a barn with a
5.18 "The Warrior". (No, really, I have to have this stuff available because
I'm running a PBEM game in that setting.)
> Ja'far troops: Veteran (Too poor of shots to merit elite, too
Agreed. My PA version is definitely non-canon.
> Somebody already mentioned the Al'kesh bomber. Jaffa don't
Still no ground vehicles to the end of S7, at least that I recall. They don't
generally have to go very far from a gate or mothership, which may be a
factor.
> They do have ground emplacement weapons, the
In 1.19 "There but for the Grace of God", we saw a tripod-mounted heavy
staff weapon being moved into the corridors of the SGC to blow down a blast
door... that looked about the same size as the "gun pit" versions in 4.03
"Upgrades", so I think you could count this as a portable heavy support
weapon.
> --- Jerry Han <jhan@warpfish.com> wrote:
Take a look at the firing stance--the weapon requires
basically shooting from the hip and has no sights. It also has an extremely
slow rate of fire. In SGII terms, I'd rate them as FP.5 and Impact d10. In
DSII
terms, I'd rate staff-armed jaffa stands as being
assault troops only. And not terribly good at
that--maybe 2 chits.
<rant> As for the P90 being a weapon of war, that's just as silly. It's a
freakin' submachine gun. A cute one with a twinky little round but a
submachine gun
nonetheless. Give me an M-4. That's a weapon of war.
62 grains at 3,100fps vs. 31 grains at 2,346 fps. Everyone is agog over that
Peruvian guy popping the
terrorist through his vest. News flash--vests aren't
designed to stop direct hits at point blank range from
real rounds. An M-4 would have done the same or
better.
You'd think that Stargate has a verdammt endorsement contract with Fabrique
Nationale. As far as I know, it's been adopted by the Saudis, Peru, and the
Thais. In "limited numbers" in all cases. When a real army adopts it, then
call me. For now the Stargate Command is the single largest customer.
Unfortunately they're fictional.
</rant>
> > Ja'far troops: Veteran (Too poor of shots to
Jaffa, actually.
> I would actually have them as non-PA troops -- the
Well, more or less. In the RP Game they are rated with Damage reduction 8,
which compares to a DR of 5 for a kevlar vest with inserts. So probably the d8
Combat Armor. The helmet is more or less trivial as armor, and its only combat
advantage is a shortrange proximity alarm system which makes it difficult to
sneak up on it.
> buggers.) They do have ground emplacement weapons,
There is the Tacluchnatagamuntoron or Tac. This is an automatic permimeter
defense system targeted on body heat with a firepower and damage about
equivalent to a staff weapon.
In the episode Forever in a Day, the heavy weapons shown are dismounted Death
Glider cannons. The RPG lists them as weighing 90 lbs, but their energy lasts
for only six shots and they cannot be recharged while dismounted. It is
described as being able to punch through several inches of titanium and having
a range in excess of a mile.
> John Atkinson wrote:
Which is probably why the show uses it, because it looks cool.
(8-)
And in any event, I was just quoting Col MacGyver, not expressing my own
personal opinion. Though, compared to Staff weapons in CQB, the P90 IS a
weapon of war. Besides, it makes sense from a weight perspective. The P90
weighs a pound lighter fully loaded with 20 extra rounds, and is smaller,
which, if you're on an exploration team, is probably more critical than sheer
firepower.
(Firepower is what the SGC Marine assault teams are for. (8-) )
Besides, I thought the smaller round actually penetrated armour
better -- at least, from the open sources I've seen.
JGH
In a message dated 6/6/2004 2:20:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> jhan@warpfish.com writes:
And in any event, I was just quoting Col MacGyver, not expressing my own
personal opinion. Though, compared to Staff weapons in CQB, the P90 IS a
weapon of war. Besides, it makes sense from a weight perspective. The P90
weighs a pound lighter fully loaded with 20 extra rounds, and is smaller,
which, if you're on an exploration team, is probably more critical than sheer
firepower.
(Firepower is what the SGC Marine assault teams are for. (8-) )
Besides, I thought the smaller round actually penetrated armour
better -- at least, from the open sources I've seen.
JGH
The P-90 fires a 5.56mm round just the same as the M-16 and the newer
M-4
carbine. The MP-5 they use to tote on Stargate fires a 9mm round, which
is a
pistol pullet the same as the M-9 Beretta pistol in standard use in the
army fires. The penetration and energy provided by the assault rifle 5.56mm
cartridge dwards that of the 9mm pistol round.
Scott
G'day,
Another comment/question from Brian:
"Although now I can't remember if the PA troops in the show had Horus heads,
Anubis heas, or a mix of Egyptian deities."
Cheers
> On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 06:42 PM, Popeyesays@aol.com wrote:
> The P-90 fires a 5.56mm round just the same as the M-16 and the newer
> the assault rifle 5.56mm cartridge dwards that of the 9mm pistol >
round.
> Â
The P90 I'm accustomed to fires a 5.7mm round that is a quite a bit
different from the standard 5.56 round used by a '16 or M-4.
See here: http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/tw_57x28system.htm
Damo
> The P-90 fires a 5.56mm round...
Not quite. It's 5.7x28mm SS190. See:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm
And FN site:
http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm
> "Justin Crough" <jcrough@c...> wrote:
Depends on what you consider 'smaller'.
a 9mm pistol/submachinegun round has a bigger diameter than an
assault rifle round. (9 millimeters versus 5.56 millimeters. However the rifle
round has a 'longer' cartridge which allows for more propellant.
Theoretically a smaller diameter round, like a thin flechette will penetrate
armor much better. By that logic, a 5.56 rifle will have penetration
superiority over the 9mm... then you factor in other variables such as the
length of the barrel (which determines how long the propellant has to work on
the projectile and thus it's muzzle velocity), the grade of propellant, the
materials the round is made out of, etc.
JP
> --- Popeyesays@aol.com wrote:
> The P-90 fires a 5.56mm round just the same as the
No, the P90 fires a custom 5.7mm pistol round.
> Jerry Han wrote:
Not according to FN: "The SS190 round will NOT penetrate protections that stop
the 5.56 x 45 mm round (steel plates, ceramic,...)" it says on their website.
FN designed both loadings, called SS109 (for M4) and SS190 (P90). It would be
very unlikely that a slower, lighter and very slightly fatter bullet can
penetrate stronger armour. Both bullets have steel penetrators and are similar
in size: one is filled with lead, the other with aluminium. An emphasis is
placed on penetrating body armour which suggest the targets envisaged are
enemy soldiers, not civilians.
Submachine gun seems a poor term for the P90, it is intended to fill a similar
role to the M1 carbine of WW2: a lightweight shoulder arm for a soldier with a
much higher muzzle velocity, effective range and firepower than the pistol
they might otherwise carry.
The entertainment business very much likes funny looking shooters and always
has. Even back when James Bond carried a PPK and the
Man from UNCLE had a P38 both were considered exotic-looking
German things.
The P90 currently arms some of the secret servicemen guarding GWB and other
American VIPs. A similar, even smaller caliber personal defence weapon, the
4.6mm H&K MP7, is issued to the multinational NATO force flying AWACS and is
being issued to some parts of the German army. Interesting new small arms
mostly seem to come from Belgium or Germany: the American army is expecting to
be armed soon with an H&K M8 carbine, and to maybe give each soldier a 4.6mm
German pistol as well.
I found this on the we4apon in question:
FN P90 - disassembled into major components
Caliber: 5.7x28mm SS190 Weight: 2.54 kg empty; 3 kg loaded with magazine with
50 rounds Lenght: 500 mm Barrel lenght: 263 mm Rate of fire: 900 rounds per
minute Magazine capacity: 50 rounds Effective range: 200 meters
The FN P90 submachine gun (SMG) was developed in the late 1980s as a defensive
weapon for the troops whose primary activities does not
include small arms -
vehicle and tank crew members, artillery crews etc. Standart pistols and SMGs
chambered for pistol rounds were proved ineffective against enemy soldiers,
wearing armour (bulletproof) vests, so FN Herstal developed a new round with
enhanced penetration - the SS190. This round looks like scaled downt
5.56mm NATO
round and forces the pointed, steel core bullet to the 600-700 meters
per second at the muzzle, thus being capable to defeat standart CRISAT helmets
and
armour vests at reasonable distances (50-100 meters).
The P90 is a blowback operated, selective fire weapon. It is fed from
50-rounds box magazines, made from transluscent polymer. The magazine is
being located above the barrel, with the cartridges being aligned at 90
degrees to the
barrel axis. Each magazine has built-in ramp that rotates cartridge to
align it with the barrel prior to chambering it. The P90 controls are
completely ambidextrous, with charging handles located
at the both sides of the weapon, and the safety/fire mode selector is
located below the trigger. The P90 also features downward ejection of the
spent cases.
P90 is built in bull-pup configuration, with polymer stock, and features
built-in reflex collimator sight with 1X magnification and reticle
automaticaly ajustable to the light level, as well as a set of the backup open
sights. P90 may be equipped with special silencer, that should be used with
special, su
b-sonic variant of the 5.7x28mm cartridge.
P90 may be referred as a forerunner of the PDW (Personal Defence Weapon)
concept, that arose in last 4 or 5 years. P90 is used by Saudi Arabia, Peruan
Special Forces and some special units of Thailand army, and offered for export
by FN.
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> G'day,
If he means the generic goon squads, then it was a mixture but you'd
only be likely to see one type on any given battlefield - the head
changed depending on whose troops they were.
> The P-90 fires a 5.56mm round just the same as the
FN produces a pistol firing the same round, the FN Five-seveN.
Odd looking thing, but holds 20 rounds and the ammo is a lot more potent
than 9mm. Probably need big hands to be comfortable with it, though...
G'day,
And more from Brian on DS-SG1 ;)
Cheers
Beth
> Brian's message(s) <<<<<<<<<
1. Thanks for the correction fo the spealling of Jaffa
2. Agreed, they suck, especially their staff weapons, that's why I had already
decided on all assault troops. The FMA's suggestion that they draw 2 chits
instead of 3 is worth considering.
3. I'd seen the tripod-mounted heavy staff weapon, I rate it an APSW
element in DS II terms.
4. Suggestion that they all be standard troops, not PA, is a good one.
5. The suggestion of the heavy bomber is duly noted. Any suggestions as to
weapons and a good substitute figure to represent them? I went with the
lighter fighters because I have figures for them.
6. If I ever do extrapolate further ground forces based on the concept but not
on actual stuff in the shows, I'll probably go with WH40K Epic Eldar stuff.
OH, and I agree about the motherships (giant pyramids in space) being an
objective if landed in DS II. In FT terms, I'd say go with cinematic,
give them advanced KV drives, a whole passel of Beam-1's and one big
nasty spinal mount of some sort, and treat the base of the pyramid as the bow
of the ship.
G'day,
More news from Biran on the DS front:
"I've done some searching online, and found a nifty option for the bomber
someone mentioned.
As stated before, the "Death Glider" fighters I found are from B5 Wars,
they're Centauri "sentri" class fighters. It turns out there's another B5
Centauri fighter, the "Rutarian", which would be perfect for the Al'kesh
bomber. Now I just have to find some.
I've decided on a lark to go with this theme as a new force to assemble for
DS. I've got a few epic eldar odss & ends that will work nicely, but
definitely need to start looking. More reports as progress is made!
Brian B"
Cheers
> G'day,
For those looking for B5 ships (or in this case fighters) check out this
website:
http://www.agentsofgaming.com/ob5cr.htm That's the Centauri page. Yes, I
know you're thinking that AoG is out of business, and they are. But Bruce Graw
is still around, and he took over the online page and is selling the leftover
stock as an individual. He's got plenty of stuff, and should have the large
scale Sentris and Rutarians that you are looking for. He takes paypal, and
ships worldwide. I've bought from him before and I had no problems.
While I'm in no danger of running out of Fleet Action ships to paint, it's
nice to know they're still available.
Thanks for the tip!
> Sylvester wrote:
> G'day,
So, some of the AOG fighters are pretty nice... Any idea of what scale
they are in or how well they'll work with 1/300 scale minis?
J
John K. Lerchey Computer and Network Security Coordinator Computing Services
Carnegie Mellon University
> On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Sylvester wrote:
> G'day,
> While I'm in no danger of running out of Fleet Action ships to paint,
Also, he's still doing the turning point minis, as well as a couple more UNAN
ships that just got released as the company went down. He can make those as
needed, since there aren't any licencing issues. (also, he has some fleet
action size freighters. Ore barges, tankers, fast freighters, that sort of
thing. Those are in limited quantities tho).
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> 6. If I ever do extrapolate further ground forces
Unfortunately the primary weakness of the bad guys seems to be the
inflexibility of their military options. It's either weapons of mass
destruction, or riot control troops (albeit riot control done PRC style rather
than done US or UK style).
> John Atkinson wrote:
> Unfortunately the primary weakness of the bad guys
This is pretty much the problem with every "cinematic" villain's ground forces
ever, really...
> On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 08:18:14AM -0700, John Atkinson wrote:
> Unfortunately the primary weakness of the bad guys
Yup. In part it's justified by the setup - any System Lord making
significant improvements to his military would be jumped on by the others
before they had the chance to come to fruition.
That said, the Death Glider just isn't armoured enough to fill the tank niche.
Things to add to what's on the show, to make it a bit more plausible:
- more portable support weapons
- indirect fire weapons of some sort
- grav armour
Anything I've missed?
R