Owen Glover and I were playing an attack/defence DS2 game on the weekend
and found a few things we would like clarified:
Woods and GEV/Grav Vehicles:
GEV and Grav vehicles are prohibited from entering woods...not even the edges.
Surely if a tracked vehicle can go through then a Grav vehicle can glide
through the same path, even a bit faster becasue its a meter or 2 above the
ground and avoiding logs etc? In the scenario, all the defending forces set up
hidden and dug in...Would it be a scenario spefici rule to have tank scrapes
in the tree line? Can these vehicles manouvre into the tree line but not into
the guts of the forest?
Hidden Units: According to the rules, a hidden unit is revealed the first time
it is activated or an opposing player's unit has LOS to it. Again, the
defenders
were dug in/hidden etc but on the first activation of the first turn a
single vehicle topped a hill and just about everything was revealed! This
seems a bit unrealistic given that the defenders were in prepared positions.
We decided that for the rest of the game, hidden units were revealed if they
moved or fired (and so could call in Arty on preregistered targets without
revealing themselves) or if a unit came within LOS AND
6"
of the unit in cover. This assumed the units had everything shutdown, cam and
thermal nets in place etc. If the hidden unit wished to move or fire, it had
to flash up its systems. If it flashed up it could then either fire
OR conduct a 1/2 move.
CC and Follow Ups: The follow up after successful CC move was used heaps. Is
there any limit to how many follow ups a unit can do? We had a Power Armour
platoon infiltrate an urban area (where the HQ troop and a BR Grav Vehicle
was) and move into CC with a dismounted Observer. He retired form the combat
(suprisingly). The PA followed up and CCed the HQ guys. They fell back. The PA
followed up and CCed the Grav Vehicle, etc. Can they really keep going and
going as long as they win and pass the CONF check for the follow up move? It
seemed like they would cross the whole board in 1 activation!
Does anyone have any ideas?
> Woods and GEV/Grav Vehicles:
Tracked vehicles are quite good at smashing their way through woods by
knocking trees down. Lacking traction GEV and Grav vehicles don't have this
option.
I would perhaps suggest allowing GEV, Grav and Hi-Mob Wheeled to
move through light woods by moving round each tree in their path hence
Difficult. Perhaps limit this to the smaller size classes. Keep Dense Woods as
Impassable.
Of course, in some backgrounds Grav vehicles can fly over the woods. Not much
good if you want the cover though.
> Woods and GEV/Grav Vehicles:
You could use the following: If a tracked (or engineering unit) makes a Rough
Path through a woods, lay a string along this path. It takes 1 movement point
extra per inch of woods to create a Rough Path. All unit that follow this path
treat
the path as Rough/Broken for movement purposes only. It maintains it's
Woods classification for cover purposes. An engeneering unit may make 1" of
Woods into a Clear Path each round (double this if it has a dedicated
engineering vehicle). Again lay a differnt color string to indicate a Clear
Path. Clear Paths are treated a clear for movment purposes. Also, I would
allow in all instances any unit to move into the edge of a wood (cost as
difficult).
> Hidden Units:
This
> seems a bit unrealistic given that the defenders were in prepared
You may want to provide a Camo Rating equal to the experince level of the
engineering unit that created the blind (d6 green, d8 regular, d10
veteran) reducing this by 1 die type if a non-engineering unit did the
camoflage. The any unit in LOS can make a detection attempt. He will roll ONCE
(d6 green, d8 regular, d10 veteran) and each hidden unit witin LOS will also
roll using thier Camo Rating. If the detection roll is higher the unit is
spotted. If the Camo roll is higher, the unit remains hidden. This assumes
that the hiden unit is powered down (engine off). If the engine is off, shift
Camo roll down by 1 die.
A hidden unit may make 1/2 of its move OR take opprotunity fire. Note,
units with HEL or MDC may not take opprotunity fire if the engine is off (as
the weapon draws energy from the engine).
> CC and Follow Ups:
You could use the following rule: Veterans may CC and Followup 3 times
Regulars may CC and Followup 2 times Green may CC and Followup 1 time.
> Owen Glover and I were playing an attack/defence DS2 game on the
[snip - already answered quite well]
> Hidden Units:
This
> seems a bit unrealistic given that the defenders were in prepared
This sounds all right, but it really depends on the terrain, IMHO. The hidden
units really have to have somewhere they can reasonably be hidden. Remember
LOS in woods and urban areas is limited to 2".
> CC and Follow Ups:
and
> move into CC with a dismounted Observer. He retired form the combat
Most definitely not! Only one follow up activation per turn! It says in the
rules that a unit may make _a_ follow up activation. Considering game
context, you would have a very tough time convincing me that this meant more
than one per turn. Its just too much like Risk for such an otherwise realistic
miniatures game... A really effective way to annihilate your apponent in CC is
to use vehicle mounted APSWs to pitch in. I use a size 2 APC with room
for 2 elements line/militia and 3 APSWs. Very deadly!
> Does anyone have any ideas ?
Let's just say that if you are travelling 30 miles behind your own lines on
foot you would be crazy not to hop up on a tank. However, you would be totally
insane to do the same thing on the front lines...
************************************************
Here is an idea,
----------
> Owen Glover and I were playing an attack/defence DS2 game on the
I'm with you on this. Grav vehicles should have most of the advantages of
tracked and the speed of GEV.
> Hidden Units:
This
> seems a bit unrealistic given that the defenders were in prepared
I use a spotting roll based on the quality of the sensors that the unit is
equipped with. IE D6 for Basic etc. Range and target type are modifiers (I'll
dig out my reference chart and post it if you are interested).
> CC and Follow Ups:
and
> move into CC with a dismounted Observer. He retired form the combat
I would feel that one follow-up should be allowed. Or allow them to
follow-up until they use their full movement for the turn.
> Does anyone have any ideas ?
> At 06:53 PM 3/1/98 +1000, you wrote:
As with regular tracked tanks, you run the risk of smacking into the tops of
trees. If I ever annoyed my driver he would "accidently" saddle up close to
some trees with long limbs and give me a good whack if I wasn't paying
attention. When we play though we always allow all vehicles to enter the tree
line 1" from the edge. This represents the vehicles moving into
semi-prepped spots.
> Hidden Units:
This
> seems a bit unrealistic given that the defenders were in prepared
We don't use the regular hidden movement rules either. We play that any hidden
unit remains so until spotted in LOS or it fires. So we allow movement out of
LOS to remain hidden. Any unit spotted remains spotted. We throw in a few
dummy counters to make life interesting. This seems to work just fine.
> CC and Follow Ups:
and
> move into CC with a dismounted Observer. He retired form the combat
Good question. We have had the same thing happen on a couple of occasions.
Same question goes for Stargrunt as well.
On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:53:39 +1000 "Paul O'Grady" <paulog@one.net.au>
writes:
> Owen Glover and I were playing an attack/defence DS2 game on the
> Hidden Units:
> CC and Follow Ups:
> follow up move ? It seemed like they would cross the whole board in 1
I don't remember exactly, but my feeling was that there would be one followup,
but maybe I'm reading more into it than what the rules actually said.
> Does anyone have any ideas ?
Oh, *lots* of 'em. :-)
> PS Can infantry ride Tanks ? Couldn't find any references to it.
I don't see why not, it was done quite a bit in WWII. The Russians had
dedicated units of tank riders (and those units had, I'm led to believe,
horrendous casualty rates), and other infantry would hitch rides whenever they
could. Now, how much of the time they'd ride into battle, I don't know. but I
see no reason why a tank couldn't have a bunch of grunts hanging on to the
outside. Just expect to take a bunch of casualties if it gets hit.
> >the edges. Surely if a tracked vehicle can go through then a Grav
I think that there would be as many cases for a Grav vehicle being able to
move through woods as there are against. I think the best solution is to get
all players to agree at the start of the game as to exactly what
restrictions on vehicular movement each stand of woods/forest
represents.
The other alternative is to accept the rules as written
Dan
Michael Brown wrote re hidden placement:
> I use a spotting roll based on the quality of the sensors that the
Which sensors? Firecon? DS doesnt have a generic 'sensor' rating like SG does.
> (I'll dig out my reference chart and post it if you are interested).
tanker@best.com spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> >CC and Follow Ups:
Two schools of thought:
In the length of standard turns, moving like this after a fleeing force makes
sense. It represents easy advance chasing a fleeing foe.
OR
Limiting this movement to some arbitary number (how about NO follow ups for
untrained, one follow up for green or regular, two follow ups for veteran or
elite?) for both game balance and reality reasons ("Captain, just how did your
assault squad end up 3 miles ahead of the rest of the advance?" "Methyl
amphetamines Sir!")
I personally like the second idea. I saw some devastating examples of this at
the East Coast con. I think limiting this exploitation is probably better for
the game.
Thomas
/************************************************
> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Paul O'Grady wrote:
> Owen Glover and I were playing an attack/defence DS2 game on the
As I read the rules, any vehicle that wants to, regardless of movement type,
can enter the edge only of a wood to claim the 'Soft Cover' (d6) secondary
defense die. I've assumed this means vehicles hunkering down
behind bushes/scrub/etc even if they can't move through the trees inside
the wood.
You do have to move out of the woods entirely to do any other movement,
however.
One reason I like Infantry Walkers is that because they move like Powered
Infantry, they can move right through woods, the only vehicles that can
-
nice to move a GMS/H onto a wooded flank your opponent thought was
secure...
> Hidden Units:
This
> seems a bit unrealistic given that the defenders were in prepared
This sounds interesting - last game, my opponents first activation was
one of his aerospace fighters, making a pass along my front and exposing
most of my hidden units for his arty and aerospace to pound on -
including the PI in the forests...
Maybe I'll try these rules next time I play...
> CC and Follow Ups:
Only one follow-up attack per CC, AFAIK...otherwise you're right, PI
especially could just go nuts - cover whole kilometers of ground per
turn...
Here is the spotting chart I came up with. This is an opposed die roll.
Target player or Referee rolls for hidden unit markers (1 per unit). Let me
know what you think.
Spotting(Optional) Sensor Hidden Unit Modifiers Basic D6 Vehicle Effective
Target Die Secondary Die as per Fire Enhanced D8 Militia D6 Movement
as per Fire
Superior D10 Line D8
Range = <20Â + 1 Die Type Powered Armor D10
Veteran +1 Die Type
Night + 1 Die Type