DS Philosophy etc

3 posts ยท Jul 27 2004 to Jul 28 2004

From: Ken Bywaters <argentnova@y...>

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:22:33 +0100 (BST)

Subject: DS Philosophy etc

Thought I'd unlurk and join in with a slightly different perspective...

I suspect that any effort to depict a "realistic" science fiction combat
environment is doomed to failure from the start. I'd see it as highly unlikely
that future warfare will be fought using anything like the forces depicted in
DS2. As JT mentions in the intro to SG2, it is quite probable that future
field of battle warfare will involve unmanned strike drones; these are already
in use and will naturally become more sophisticated and capable. And
unsurprisingly, compulsive computer gamers are proving to be among the most
adapt at controlling such systems, producing a new class of "soldier".

Other technological developments point towards the real future of warfare as
involving weather control (there is a Pentagon statement of intent to this
effect), information and economic dominance, designer biotech weapons,
emotional and mental control via sonics and microwaves etc etc. Much of this
stuff is in active research, and has probably already developed much further
than public press announcements depict.

The current design trends for force composition for the US and UK armies
appears to be heading towards rapid deployment forces which are considerably
lighter than those originally designed to fight Fulda Gap style encounters
against other MBTs. Furthermore, the US has declared its intent to develop and
deploy a new generation of micro tac nukes. This suggests that unless nuclear
dampers exist in the future there's going to be no point building Bolos or
Ogres or even having large concentrations of conventional forces. An unmanned
disposable stealth drone with a micro nuke will simply saunter along and blow
them away...

As gamers we discuss points values and set up games with balanced points
systems. This is not realistic. AFAIK, US doctrine used to call for achieving
local odds of at least 6 to 1 for attacks. In recent years the US and UK have
amply demonstrated the devastating effect of unrestricted air power against an
adversary without the technology and means to adequately resist. War isn't
romantic, and it isn't about points values. It's about winning. Preferably
without the other guy getting an opportunity to shoot back.

However - while all this stuff may be a far more accurate and realistic
depiction of an actual hard sci fi future, it makes a really boring game!!

There's also the argument that in fact the people and overall situation
aspects remain fairly similar anyway. It's been suggested that the rules are
at fault because they reflect a Vietnam perspective. Iraq 2003 may have lots
of glitzy new high tech toys and may have crushed
those parts of the Iraqi army that stayed around  to take it - but the
reality of Iraq in 2004 is that the US actually IS fighting something very
similar to Vietnam all over again. And despite the advanced technology and the
lavish affluence of US equipment, we still have young kids out there getting
their first taste of the reality of war, jumpy because in that kind of bandit
country they never know where and when they'll come under fire, and tending to
respond with seemingly indiscriminate auto fire whenever something does
happen. And the opposition forces, who have NO chance of success in a stand up
confrontation, are making good use of cunning, improvised and low tech
weaponry, their inherent adv!
 antages
in homeland and people. So how is this much different to Vietnam?

Returning to DS2... Any rules that have a generic element still end up
interpreting weapons systems in certain ways - for example is it reality
that lasers are long range but light hitters and DFFGs are short ranged heavy
hitters? No, it's just Jon's interpretation. Someone else may write it
differently. For example the Traveller RPG viewed gauss guns as auto firing
lots of 4mm darts. The Space Opera RPG saw gauss guns as firing single 20mm
projectiles very hard. Which one is accurate and realistic and correct?

One of the things I enjoy most about DS2 is that the rules provide a
framework. Because they are simple and fast playing, it is easy to customise
DS2 into new formats or simply rewrite aspects of the rules for a particular
game setting. From a personal point of view, I'm not sure the rules need all
that much of an overhaul, because they are flexible enough to be bent into new
shapes. For example if you don't like DFFGs being short ranged, it is really
easy to alter the stats and field a weapon with different characteristics. A
lot of this stuff looks like it can be "fixed" with local agreement and house
rules. JT invites that approach (obviously with the agreement of one's playing
companions), and my gaming circle has always enjoyed taking that approach.

I've regularly played DS2 with combat between formations up to Brigade
strength. That only works because DS2 has simple and slightly abstract
mechanics. Some of the options under discussion would add so much complexity
that we would no longer have a fast play rule set. As someone who started out
on old "modern period" games, it would be like the difference between WRG
moderns armour rules and the TTG Challenger rule set. One set was abstract but
produced an OK overall end result, albeit with a slightly irritating
abstraction of the armour differences on MBTs (very similar to the complaints
about DS2!). The other set had about 7 or 8 dice rolls for each shot,
including a roll for the percentage of a HEAT charge that actually jetted
correctly. End result was that it could take several hours just to figure out
what had happened between a couple of tank platoons. The Challenger set ended
up with so much detail that it was virtually unplayable.

I've found DS2 to be highly customisable. One example is Jon's "Slammin' the
Dirt" article, which introduced powerguns etc as a new
weapon system - demonstrating how easy it is to shape the DS2 mechanisms
into a specific universe.

I've also experimented with using the Adler "Dark Star" miniatures,
which are VERY high tech grav - orbital insertion vehicles and suchlike
- and again simply changing the DS2 rules to reflect a specific
universe. In this case we made a distinction between the orbital grav vehicles
and the standard groundpounders and allowed orbital vehicles an additional
level of armour above the standard rules, heavier bottom armour, and so forth.
We also traded off unused capacity points for
extra movement e.g. an unused point allows +2 inches to maximum speed.
In this variant we had some vehicles with maximum movement rates of up to 36
inches, and despite some very lethal weaponry, quite a lot of manoeuvre. I
guess it helped that the units themselves were fairly
small, maybe 2 orbital grav tanks or 4-5 jeeps in a platoon (partly
prompted by the expense of Dark Star models!). The effect was a different
flavour to conventional DS2 though, and we had vehicles which WERE able to
fly.!
 Though it
wasn't always desirable to parade yourself in high mode. The tanks could fly,
but NOE and using cover was still a smart idea.

Seems to me that some of the Traveller rules versions already offer most of
the levels of detail that are under discussion. But my own preference is
definitely for a fast playing game that doesn't leave me with a headache the
way some of the supposedly ultra realistic rules systems can do. In my long
career as a gamer I've gone from simple to
complex and then back to simple again.  So my vote - just in case Jon is
taking notes on this for DS3! - is definitely for "simple".

Maybe I'm in a minority about this, but our group has had most fun with DS2
and SG2 when using the rules to explore some of the sociology and
scenarios - for example three way encounters with a peacekeeping force
attempting to pacify without using overwhelming force and earning moral
condemnation. And of course the simplicity is an advantage for this kind of
purpose.

From: Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@j...>

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:14:22 PDT

Subject: Re: DS Philosophy etc

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:22:33 +0100 (BST) =?iso-8859-1?q?Ken=20Bywaters?=
> <argentnova@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

Some people feel that no game can provide the terror and confusion of modern
warfare (Piquet supposedly notwithstanding) and others feel that no historical
set can recreate the blazing fallible foibles of human 'less then brilliant'
commanders while others complain that rules that allow a "Napoleon" commander
figure to always have tremendous advantages
(the player is not Napoleon I have read/heard)  are unbalancing but
historical players always seem to strive to re-create history.   SF
players strive to 'pre-create' a future that has a basis in projections
of assumptions of reality. <snip> No Comment. <snip>
> Maybe I'm in a minority about this, but our group has had most fun
As has been pointed out - the goal is to allow the players decisions as
to what complexity they want to play with in their 'world/universe'
which allows customization of a wide range. Whether or not that can be done
simply is the acid test for the game.

Gracias,

From: Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@h...>

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:50:04 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: Re: DS Philosophy etc

> --- Ken Bywaters <argentnova@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

*SNIP*

> It's been suggested that the rules are at

NO IT HASN'T!!!!!!!

It's been suggested, and quite successfully, that the
rules are at fault because they reflect Vietnam-era
TECHNOLOGY. There's a huge differene. Sure, future conflict may, and probably
will at times, feel like Vietnam in terms of the politics, the strategy, etc.
That's fine. Hell, make your battles reminiscent of Agincourt or Borodino, for
all I care! But the weapons, technology, and resources used to FIGHT the
battle had better be at LEAST as advanced as what we're using today, and at
BEST quite a bit more so (whether we predict the level and direction of the
advancement accurately is beside the point -- if I'm
playing sci-fi, I'd rather play far-frtched, wrong,
but interesting than play historically and scientifically accurate but
passe').

> Returning to DS2... Any rules that have a generic

To some extent, yes. But we can offer a set of game stats for different
weapons and systems, based on different assumptions, and let the players
choose which ones fit in the framework of their background and it's assumed
truths. That's what makes a game generic.

Someone else may write it
> differently. For example the Traveller RPG viewed

WRT MDC's, it's immaterial. IF the game effect is the same, you can describe
the weapon any way you want.