Hi All,
I'm about to start work on decals to do platoon identification for vehicles.
These will be chevrons, squares, diamonds, circles, etc. that would be put
onto the turret or flank of a tank to designate its platoon and position
within the platoon (likely dots as would be found on dice within the symbol).
So, before I get to work, I was wondering... How many tanks do you typically
put into a single platoon? I usually do 3 or 4, but wonder what the biggest of
your platoons are. If folks regularly do 5 or 6, then I should reflect that in
the decal sheets.
BTW, I'll be making them in sizes suitable for 25mm, 15mm, and 6mm.
:)
> John K Lerchey wrote:
that
> would be put onto the turret or flank of a tank to designate its
I think 3-4 is typical size for tank platoons. At least that's what
all *mine* are ;-) I can't recall anyone else fielding larger (unless
they were GW-monkeyboys, that is ;-)
> BTW, I'll be making them in sizes suitable for 25mm, 15mm, and 6mm.
Exxxxcellent. I've got companies of 6mm armour ready for unit identification.
;-)
Mk
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 02:13:42PM -0500, Indy wrote:
> I think 3-4 is typical size for tank platoons. At least that's what
The biggest I've heard of is 5, which I think the Germans and Americans both
(sometimes) used during WW2. 3 and 4 are much more common. 2 is too few to
guard all directions, and by the time you get to 6 you tend to subdivide the
unit instead.
> Roger Burton West wrote:
Well, that would explain why all the GHQ packs are always 5 units large.
;-)
Mk
Yep, 4-5. Mine are split 50/50 between 4 and 5.
Looking forward to these.
Nick
[quoted original message omitted]
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 02:13:42PM -0500, Indy wrote:
Agreed; I've never heard of 6-tank platoons in reality, though I
suppose there is nothing to prevent them in SF... though as Roger
says, you'd be likely to divide a 6-tank plt into 2 sections of 3.
As an aside re: 2-tank platoons, Soviet early WW2 heavy tank
companies were often just a command tank plus 2 platoons of 2 tanks
each - ie: just 5 x KV-1 to a full company! Still, makes them cheaper
to field on the table!! ;-)
> The biggest I've heard of is 5, which I think the Germans and Americans
ISTR that Wehrmacht used 4, SS used 5. Most TO&E's I've seen use 3 or 4 to a
platoon, and if you want more tanks in the company you add more platoons, not
bigger ones.
Thanks all. I'll plan on a max size of 5 per platoon. Decals Express will have
a table at the ECC, and I will bring platoon marker packs. I'll send a pointer
to the list with a web image of them when I get them designed, and if anyone
has specific orders you can let me know so that I can bring enough of whatever
you need.
Thanks,
J
--On Wednesday, January 28, 2004 2:31 PM -0500 Nicholas Caldwell
> <nicholascaldwell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Yep, 4-5. Mine are split 50/50 between 4 and 5.
that
> would be put onto the turret or flank of a tank to designate its
> At 2:29 PM -0500 1/28/04, Indy wrote:
There's also the ever present Extra command and support vehicles.
3 Platoons to a company and 2 command vehicles in the Company's command
platoon.
Ryan Gill just sent me an excellent document detailing how the WWII British
designated units. From this, what I'm looking to create is "tacsigns". These
would be squares, chevrons, circles, squares, or triangles, in
varying colors, with some designation of 1-5 within them.
I just thought it would be worth clarifying, now that I know the right
terminology.:)
> At 2:56 PM -0500 1/28/04, John K. Lerchey wrote:
Well, there's tac signs, divisional flashes and arm of service flashes. It
gets complicated...let me see if I can find a good photo to detail this as an
example.
ok,
Daimler Armored Car:
http://www.mindspring.com/~rmgill/britkit/vehicles/images/AHDAC3.jpg
Green over blue box (Recce) 44 indicates its from an Armored Car regiment
(attached to an armored division) The Shield with the Eye of Horus is Guards
Armored Division. Some Armored Cars had Tac Signs, others didn't. It depended
on unit policy.
Bren Carrier
http://www.mindspring.com/~rmgill/britkit/vehicles/images/carrier2.jpg
Green over blue box (Recce) 41 indicates its from an Infantry
Division's Recce Regiment. The Black Box w/ white ring/yellow field
and red Rampant Lion is 15th (Scottish) Infantry Division.
Daimler Dingo (my own!)
http://www.mindspring.com/~rmgill/britkit/vehicles/images/dingowcarrier.
jpg Same as the carrier, but note that Armored Cars had F series 'WD' numbers
for serial numbers. Carriers and tanks had T series 'WD' numbers. Trucks bikes
and other vehicles had other 'WD' Numbers. Some Dingo's had tac signs on the
area behind the side window, 15 scottish did not.
A Cab 12 (Monkey face) CMP Truck
http://www.amps-armor.org/Images/Photos/CMP/CMP01.jpg
The Brown square and 67 indicate its from the 1st Battalion from the junior
brigade of an infantry division. However, it's got a Red Desert Rat's
Divisional symbol (7th Armored Divison). The Yellow disk with a 3 is the
bridge weight marker.
Churchill tank
http://afvinteriors.hobbyvista.com/church/chur12.jpg
Mid Green Block w/ 993 (141 Royal Armoed Corps) with Blue Tac Signs
on the turrets)
Another Churchill tank
http://freespace.virgin.net/chris.shillito/a22new/register/nihgg.jpg
This presents a question. If it were with the Scottish Guards it'd make sense
with the Blue Tac Sign, however, I'm not certain of it's correct Arm of
service flash as it's a 163 on a red background. Perhaps the Guards Armored
Division as that'd make sense with a Churchill in an Irish tank Regiment.
The images helped greatly in clarifying even further. However, and please
forgive my ignorance here, I was looking at two sources recently (neither of
which are with me in the office). A copy of Fine Scale Modeller with an
article on Iraqie tank units. The tanks were given large colored boxes,
triangles, etc. on the backs and sides of turrets to show which platoon and
company they were in. Likewise, in the Vanguard book on Bradleys, there are
some color plates showing a large chevron (inverted
V)
on the side of one of the hulls.
These are generic enough that I think I can make reasonable decal sets of
them. The items like blue over green boxes with a "44" in it, and other
branch/arms markers may be too "nation specific" to do for sci-fi
vehicles unless someone comes up with sets specific to the NAC, FSE, etc.
Do the markers that I plan to make still have value for y'all? I know that I
want to use them for my Combine (OGRE) armor battalion in order to clearly
designate armor platoons. Nothing worse than when I give my carefully painted
tanks to another player and says, "How do I know which ones belong with
which?":)
J
> At 4:28 PM -0500 1/28/04, John K Lerchey wrote:
Well, the inverted Chevrons were for unified identification of all Coalition
vehicles. The White stars were present on the roof of most US, British and
Russian vehicles for a reason. The Canadians just got cheeky and turned their
stars sideways.
> These are generic enough that I think I can make reasonable decal sets
Keep in mind that if you're trying to be realistic, that Divisional and
Brigade notations are more critical than company symbols. Usually
a number works for the platoon/company/battalion. They'll over lap
from brigade to brigade in some cases.
> Do the markers that I plan to make still have value for y'all? I know
In the case of an Ogre, I'd think that a name would work. Those
things are practically ships. OO-5, OO-6. OH-11 (ogre or heavy ogre).
> Well, the inverted Chevrons were for unified identification of all
Silly Canuks.:)
> >These are generic enough that I think I can make reasonable decal
Hmm.
> >Do the markers that I plan to make still have value for y'all? I
Oh, sorry. Not for the OGREs themselves. For the crunchies. The heavy tanks,
missile tanks, light tanks, SPA, etc. The OGREs don't need this type of marker
IMHO.
:)
J
G'day,
> I think 3-4 is typical size for tank platoons. At least that's what
Well this monkey girl uses 5s... mind you they are in reality WWI tanks so may
be that's my problem;P;)
G'day,
> Do the markers that I plan to make still have value for y'all?
I'm one of those mad nutters who actually paints the unit markers on, but I'm
sure for the slightly less terminally insane they'd have a lot of appeal;)
Have fun
Hi,
> Thursday, January 29, 2004, 4:50:40 AM, Beth wrote:
BFca> I'm one of those mad nutters who actually paints the unit BFca> markers
on, but I'm sure for the slightly less terminally insane BFca> they'd have a
lot of appeal;)
Well, you are not alone on this Beth. I actually paint SS runes, and german
eagles on my 15mm WW2 stuff (runes on helmets, eagles on the arms). Will have
to find similar markings for my almost finished brits:)
> John K Lerchey wrote:
> The images helped greatly in clarifying even further. However, and
For nation specific stuff like this, I use 15mm historical markings from
WW2 decals (the particular marking you're talking about is after all a
WW2 sign) such as those sold by http://www.skytrex.com. My future-German
forces (not NSL, as I play my SG2 games in a different universe) have crosses
taken from their WWI aircraft ranges eg the Baldur tanks in
http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/MWS/ShowGames/Outpost/index.html
Presumably you're talking about 25mm markings? Any chance of 15mm as well?
Tony, et al,
I'm planning to do the markings in 25mm, 15mm, and micro. Once the 25mm set is
done, it's just a matter of scaling.
J
Yes - these I will buy, even not making it to ECC this year. As I too
have both DSII and Ogre miniatures that need some good markings. My
suggestion: keep them generic. Shapes, colors and numbers.
Noah, et al,
Ok. So the first 25mm sheet is done. It has 5 chevrons, 5 squares, and 5
circles. I'll do a second sheet with diamonds, triangles, and... something
else.:)
Next question. Should the numbers be dots or actual numerics? I did it with
dots for now, but it's easy to change. Once done, I'll do a couple
of different color sets - black, white, yellow, blue, red, green so that
folks have options, and I'll scale them all so that there are 25mm, 15mm, and
6mm. In some cases, for smallish turrets, for example, the next size smaller
(other than for micro tanks!) would likely work.
Once the decision is made about the numbering scheme (the numbers can always
be cut out and not used if you prefer), I'll finish some up and will put a
sample on a web page for comment by those who are interested.
Thanks,
J
John K. Lerchey Computer and Network Security Coordinator Computing Services
Carnegie Mellon University
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Noah V. Doyle wrote:
> Yes - these I will buy, even not making it to ECC this year. As I too
[quoted original message omitted]
> At 10:43 PM +0100 1/29/04, K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:
Keep in mind that at that point, the Panzer IV was a support tank with a short
75mm. It wasn't the same tank as the later in the war PzIV Specials.
I suspect that while there certainly were some historical formations of 6
tanks, that most sci-fi gamers will have a max of 5. And the average
seems to be platoons of either 3 or 4.
I'm going to stick with 5 on my sheets for now. If someone really needs groups
of 6, I could always make them a custom set.:)
John
John K. Lerchey Computer and Network Security Coordinator Computing Services
Carnegie Mellon University
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
Two nations (My oen back water nations) get 5 per, two get 4 per and two get 3
per. Plus i field the Indonesian (or will) Commonwealth foces at 4 per.
The only reason teh two get 5 is to give the HVC/RFAC and DFFG nations a
boost versus the other (GMS, HKP, MDC, HEL nations.) IC will use a mix of tech
(Malaysian Influence...)
Gracias, Glenn
"Half the Harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to
feel important. They don't mean to do harm - but the harm does not
interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are
absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." T. S. Elliot
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:59:34 -0500 (EST) John K Lerchey
> <lerchey@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:13:42 -0500 Indy <kochte@stsci.edu> writes:
<snip>
> I think 3-4 is typical size for tank platoons. At least that's what
The People's Holy Republic declares you both a heretic and an infidel! And The
South Asian Imperium figures you are just inscrutable with comments like
that... <grin>
Three and Four seems to be the most common I hear about.
Gracias,
G'day,
> Well, you are not alone on this Beth. I actually paint SS runes, and
Cool!
> Will have to find similar markings for my almost finished brits :)
WW2 isn't my area really, but I have painted the patches on the shoulders of
my WWI UK Home Guard guys, its really just a lighter colour, like the rank
stripes (which I also paint). There is theoretically lettering on the patches
too (at least there was for the home guard). Don't remember seeing any nice
"unit logo" kind of symbol in the pictures I sifted through though (but like I
said WW2 isn't really my area).
Good luck
G'day guys,
Here's a message from Brian B. on the topic.
Cheers
Beth
--------------
My preferences lie in the 4-5 vehicles per unit range as well. When
you're at 3 or less, the unit falls apart too quickly. Six or more, and it's
too unwieldy. The 4 and 5 options aren't perfect, as each has it's own
weakness, to some extent inherent in DS rules, not RL, namely:
At 4/unit, you're still at the point where the loss of just 1 tank
results in extra penalties to your morale (for 25% loss).
At 5/Unit, the unit starts becoming unwieldy.
So here's the solution I've come up with:
Armored platoons (MBT's): 5 Tanks/Platoon. Since they're the tip of
the spear, I prefer they not shatter easily. While it means they sacrifice a
little bit of manouverability, it also means that they don't lose confidence
as easily.
Cavalry Lances/Support platoons: 4 Vehicles/Platoon. Since
manouverability and versatility are more important for these units, I assing 4
vehicles to each.
Mech Infantry Platoons: 4 Vehicles/Platoon. My APC's are battle taxis,
not MICV's, and so aren't expected to bear the brunt of DF like the MBT's. And
since each carries 2 infantry elements, they actually have 8 elements.
Brian B