DS II: Just to make trouble

Ok, this question will probsbly be torn apart, but on the other hand, it

might be fun to see what people say...

The .50 cal/12.7 mm HMG would definitely be an APSW, right? On the heavy

end, but still an APSW.

A 20 mm autocannon would be an RFAC 1, according to the book....

So where does the Soviet KPV (14.5 mm)fit? APSW or RFAC 1????

Nah Prablem,

in effect the 14.7 should roughly equate the venerable 50 cal.

Owen G

> -----Original Message-----

> So where does the Soviet KPV (14.5 mm)fit? APSW or RFAC 1????

What kind of ammo is it using? African or European?

> Brian B(eing a stinker) wrote:

On the contrary, I believe a 5.56mm LMG is a Light APSW, a 7.62mm MMG is a
APSW, while a 12.7mm (0.50 cal) is most definitely a Heavy APSW.

The 14.5mm weapon could either be RFAC/1 or Heavy APSW. It's definitely
not as good as a Western 20mm cannon.

An alternative is Extra-Heavy APSW taking 2 capacity points (three in
turret) and doing 5 damage chits to infantry, and, perhaps, drawing 1 chit as
RFAC against vehicles, with slightly less effectiveness. Needs a little more
thought, though.

> At 12:10 AM 3/29/00 -0800, Ndege Diamond wrote:

Neither - it's unladen, remember?  No ammo allowed . . .

> > The .50 cal/12.7 mm HMG would definitely be an APSW, right? On the

I'm with calling it an APSW.

> On the contrary, I believe a 5.56mm LMG is a Light APSW,

Naw, that would be included in the ordinary squard firearms

"Most [rifle] teams will also contain a light team-support weapon (an
LMG or GPMG equivalent), but this is NOT considered a separate weapon
for firepower purposes - its effect is factored into the overall
'personal arms' firepower of the team." -DSII p13

In SGII they're SAWs of course.

> a 7.62mm MMG

Both would be APSWs.

"The term [APSW] is used here to cover such weapons in as
conventional Medium or Heavy Machine Guns..." - DSII p35

My problem has been more how to treat HMGs in SGII. I developed rules for
Heavy Support Weapons, but quite like the look of the class
one/personal rules that Brian Bell posted recently. Time to do some
number crunching and playtesting and see how they compare.

> My problem has been more how to treat HMGs in SGII. I developed rules

Before anyone gets confused, I know that Brian's rules are for scaled down
class one weapons in DS2 but I see potential for SG2...

> Steve wrote:

Unfortunately, it doesn't quite match the case of Israeli Zeldas which have
0.50 cal HMG and 7.62mm MMG. In DSII plus my enhancements to APSWS, a HAPSW
@ 1.5 capacity + APSW @ 0.5 capacity + 2 Squads @ 4 just fits VSC/2 and
matches the real world vehicle.

:-)

And some more trouble...
Has anyone considered Auto-Grenade Launchers? Americans have 40mm
calibre, while Russia has a smaller calibre.

In pictures I've seen, they're usually firing straight ahead. But I believe
they could fire indirectly. Does anyone know if this is true?

Andrew, You are correct. We use the MK19 (40mm) in both modes (USMC considers
it a 40mm Machine Gun), but to be fair, we mostly use it in direct fire mode.
With a range in excess of 2,200m it's like having a REALLY fast light motar
section. Some of our units train to use regular MG's in indirect mode as well.
I've even come across an indirect fire table for a browning.30 from Korea in
one of our units. The battalions weapons officer was attempting to develop a
similar table for our Heavy Guns plt.

Scott

> -----Original Message-----

In a message dated 3/29/00 3:07:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> nezach@earthlink.net writes:

> >So where does the Soviet KPV (14.5 mm)fit? APSW or RFAC 1????

I do love Monty Python. :-)

A quick comparison...

Non-Driving Bands
5.56x45 (5.56 NATO) generates c 1,680 J. 7.62x51 (7.62 NATO) generates c 3,275
J.

12.7 x99 (.50 Browning) generates c 16,774 J. 12.7x107 (Soviet) generates c
15,570 J. 14.5x114 (Soviet) generates c 30,215 J. Driving Bands 15x115 (FN
15mm) generates c 38,588 J. 20x102 (M39 for the M61 Vulcan) generates c 53,575
J. 20x128 (KAA) generates c 66,150 J. 20x139 (HS820) generates c 72,600 J.
23x115 (23mm Soviet NS) generates c 47,915 J. 23x152B (23mm Soviet VYa)
generates c 92,500 J.

Driving bands are o-ring seals on the outside of the prjectile to
prevent excessive barrel errosion. FN tried to make their 15mm work without
them, but failed. c is circa (about). J is Joules of energy.

This does not take into the effect of explosive warheads, just kinetic energy.
I hope this helps in the debate over what the 15mm Soviet is...

> Imre A. Szabo wrote:

> A quick comparison...

> 20x102 (M39 for the M61 Vulcan) generates c 53,575 J.

...etc.

> This does not take into the effect of explosive warheads, just kinetic

20mm is currently pretty much the smallest possible caliber for an HE round.
Smaller than that, and you can't pack in enough explosives to be
worthwhile - with today's explosives that is; it might be possible to
shave a couple of mm off this in the future :-/

Regards,

No,.50 cal = 12.7 mm. KPV = 14.5 mm

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Glover, Owen" <oglover@museum.vic.gov.au>
Reply-To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: "'gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU'" <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: RE: DS II: Just to make trouble
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:08:03 +1000

Nah Prablem,

in effect the 14.7 should roughly equate the venerable 50 cal.

Owen G

> -----Original Message-----

Give your answer based on either or both ammos... your pick...

----Original Message Follows----
From: Ndege Diamond <nezach@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: DS II: Just to make trouble
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:10:52 -0800

> So where does the Soviet KPV (14.5 mm)fit? APSW or RFAC 1????

What kind of ammo is it using? African or European?

I can't verify that, but I do know the rules state they are considered an
APSW.

BB

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Andrew Martin" <Al.Bri@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: DS II: Just to make trouble
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:18:52 +1200

And some more trouble...
Has anyone considered Auto-Grenade Launchers? Americans have 40mm
calibre, while Russia has a smaller calibre.

In pictures I've seen, they're usually firing straight ahead. But I believe
they could fire indirectly. Does anyone know if this is true?

And I can't believe I missed the reference... *ashamed*

BB

----Original Message Follows----
From: JRebori682@aol.com
Reply-To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: DS II: Just to make trouble
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:46:06 EST

In a message dated 3/29/00 3:07:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> nezach@earthlink.net writes:

> >So where does the Soviet KPV (14.5 mm)fit? APSW or RFAC 1????

I do love Monty Python. :-)

> Scott wrote:

Thanks for the info, Scott.