It's been several years since I first purchased DS II, and it looks like I'm
drawing nigh unto a time when I'll actually have a chance to PLAY it,
hallelujah, as well as maybe get involved in the other fine games GZG makes.
The question I have is this:
How many people out there ever stray from the official "Tuffleyverse" and
come up with their own political/military powers to scrap it out? It
was this possibility that first drew me to the game (Having been introduced to
sci fi wargaming via Battletech, I had grown weary of the
"House/Clan/Merc
strictures of that game. I wanted to be able to have my friends and I come
up with our own countries/powers to fight, since the DS rulebook really
pushes the "generic" quality of the game). Yet as I observe discussions of the
game, I notice that the political entities of the "canon" are almost as
integral to the discussions as are the rules themselves, though I admit this
is least rampant in discussions of DS II (eg Hammer's Slammers discussions,
etc.).
For those that stick to the Tuffleyverse, I have a further question: In
deciding on which entity you'd focus on (Are you FSE? NSL? NAC? etc), did you
pick one that reflected your own preferences for tactics and strategy, or did
you pick the one with the most esthetically pleasing
ship/tank/uniform designs (or coolest name), and learn to follow their
tactical doctrines? Or do you just pick a power to name yourself, and
design units/tactics to suit yourself, whether that's typical of s aid
power or not?
Final question, for SG/DS: Has anyone done anything with what happens
in the future to the French Foreign Legion? Are the in the TO&E of one of the
powers in the Tuffleyverse?
Thanks,
> How many people out there ever stray from the official "Tuffleyverse"
and
> come up with their own political/military powers to scrap it out?
LOL everyone that I know!
Whoa, Brian, I think something got crossed. Or, you haven't been around as
long as I'd thought.
The discussions of canon are certainly meant to try and maintain the balance
that at least seems available in the fleets, as well as being a fun place to
invite folks to play, but there have been plenty of discussions of home grown.
Often, we seem to try and shoehorn our private worlds into the framework, but
a great many are plain silly stuck together, and some plenty silly stuck into
Jon's. Ok, a lot are just plain silly.
You HAVE heard of Dean's marvelous cross-genre con games, with
Battlestar Galactic fighting the Palpatine Empire fighting Star Fleet
fighting..., and seen plenty of discussions of picking up this model or that
to portray something REALLY off the wall.
The thing with DSII is that it's probably had the least discussion of ANY
background, whether canon or not. It seems from this vac-head's point of
view, 90% of all the talk has been completely generic.
The only reasons you may see few examples of homegrown, and that's a very
relative use of the term 'few', would laziness on the part of the dilettantes
such as me, and fear by the rest of the ruthless analytic
calculations of Oerjan... ;->=
In setting up tournaments, canon fleets are great for nice balance for
relatively unexperienced players, but no-holds barred can work, as long
as everyone knows which if any of the unbalancing factors hold sway.
OHMYGOODNESS, I've NEVER seen Beth suggest Daleks are canon!
> How many people out there ever stray from the official
<snip>
> I notice that the political entities of the "canon" are almost as
Well, that's a slightly more slippery question than it at first appears.
Approaches are: a) canon only (eg NSL) b) extensions of canon powers (eg ship
designs not in FB) c) not canon but compatible (eg the Alarishi Empire, or
Los' planet Lusitania) d) using some canon but incompatible (John Atkinson's
Byzantines-in-Spaaaaace!, er, NRE)
e) another universe (St*r W*rs or Tr*k) f) starting completely from scratch
I took "c" for the Alarishi Empire because I've found it more interesting to
try assume the history as given, then try to work my government etc to fit
into something that already exists. It isn't less work htan starting from
scratch, just different work. My view of
the Islamic Fed is much the same--they're mentioned in canon but no
official stats, so I'm fleshing them out.
I think the reason a lot of the discussion is on what's canon is that we all
have a pretty good idea what's in canon and even if you're not using FB ships,
it's easy to descriibe them as, for example,
"NSL-style". Further, it's something that is relevant to more people.
If someone comes up with a really fascinating exposition of the
designs and tactics of a completely non-canon power, we'll all listen,
but it's not as relevant to as many people. If I want to know what the FSE
should do to cope with the KV, that's all I have to ask, and I'l be getting
analyses and advice from more people than if I asked about what the New
Timbuktu Stellar Dominance should do to deal with the oncoming Sjandra fleet.
And of course if you're really brilliant in your exposition, your work may
*become* canon. I'm not usually up to "brilliant" so I'm hoping to substitute
"persistant"....
> For those that stick to the Tuffleyverse, I have a further question:
In
> deciding on which entity you'd focus on (Are you FSE? NSL? NAC?
etc), did
> you pick one that reflected your own preferences for tactics and
One reason I picked the IF is that the FSE have by far the best *looking*
ships, but I didn't like functional designs. So I said "who might use FSE
hulls as a starting point for their designs?" and the IF
> How many people out there ever stray from the official? "Tuffleyverse"
and
> come up with their own political/military
I have NEVER paid much attention to any "official" history of any game I
have played (including, among others: "Warhammer", "40k" and "Battletech").
The sole exceptions to this rule have been historical wargames, and even
those I have no problem playing what-ifs.
IMHO, if you want a really good sci-fi background it can be had in too
many
sci-fi novels to be listed. Writers like Heilein and Asimov (for
example)
are tough to beat. No disrespect to Mr. Tuffley, or anyone else ;-).
But, unless you are playing a campaign, I personally think players spend too
much time on this sort of fluff.
Just my two cents mind you.
> How many people out there ever stray from the official "Tuffleyverse"
and
> come up with their own political/military powers to scrap it out
I personally tend to stick with the Tuffleyverse. Except that I also have a
line of Star Trek:TOS ships. But that's for FT. I don't play DS2 or SG much.
I'm not heavily into "anything goes" battles, preferring to make
sub-optimal ships that conform to a particular background's design
philosophies.
> For those that stick to the Tuffleyverse, I have a further question:
In
> deciding on which entity you'd focus on (Are you FSE? NSL? NAC? etc),
None of the above, though the last comes closest.
The Tuffleyverse has a number of nations - all except for the NSL, FSE,
NAC and ESU in fact - that have no detail about them at all. Some of the
PAU ships (e.g. Kinshasa) have been named, and the artwork for that one
suggests it's a possibly-refitted NAC Majestic, but that's about it.
Moreover, Canon ship models for a number of nations - e.g. UN, IF, OU
exist, just with no stats or background for them. A bit like the days pre FB1.
So I tried to come up with a background and ship design philosophy for one of
these powers, with ships that were neither Galloping Grossossities nor
Creampuffs, which had their own flavour very different from existing fleets,
requiring a completely new set of tactics to use to best effect.
I started with something as bog-standard as the ESU, then crippled it
(by having no beams larger than Class 2) and then strengthened it (by
allowing replaceable modules for greater operational flexibility - an
opponent doesn't know exactly what mix he'll be facing from battle to battle),
and just plain changing it by having ships that were at worst average in hull
strength, and usually strong. A soupcon of armour, not too much, as I didn't
want the ships to be *too* tough. I deliberately set the module size at 8 to
disallow Fighter bays as modules, fearing
that that would be cheesy - too effective by half.
I find the "get in close" tactics of the OUDF that I created to be difficult
in cinematic, and very difficult in Vector. Yet I've had a lot of fun in the
playtests, when a salvo that would wreck a Battlecruiser hits a Tuvalu Block
II, and it metaphorically picks itself up, shrugs itself off, and keeps
firing. Not firing very well, but it demoralises the opposition who fully
expected it to vanish in a puff of illogic. Not
merely that, but the slightly-over-multiple-of-20-mass means they get an
extra crew for damage control, and the increased hull boxes mean they tend to
lose less crew and weapons in thresholds too. The astute will notice the
relatively small number of ships lost in action, vs the
number scrapped/decommissioned. This is because OU ships often come home
after a losing battle as wrecks fit only for the scrapyard, vs not coming home
at all. And that fits in with the relatively low population of the OU, and its
need to conserve manpower. It's a gestalt. Reserving the more
sophisticated, larger and expensive weapons for a few non-modular
designs also fits in with the cookie-cutter manufacturing philosophy,
these are "design to price" ships for a 3rd-rate power with 1st-rate
responsibilies.
> From a Minimax viewpoint (ie how effective they are in a 1-off battle )
then if they get with Decisive Range - 12" - they're got more rather
than less firepower than most opponents. At 24" their increased toughness and
increased numbers (they're about 10% cheaper) makes up for their slightly
inferior firepower. Their unusually wide firing arcs makes them more likely to
be within arc when things get mixed up in a furball in cinematic too. They'd
be overly effective if it wasn't for the fact that most fleets fight quite
well at ranges over 24", and that
they are subject to attrition before they can get in close - this is
especially the case with Vector.
> How many people out there ever stray from the official "Tuffleyverse"
and
> come up with their own political/military powers to scrap it out? It
Ive designed a couple of minor powers -- the Hanseatic League and the
Pantropist Society
-- and one major power (actually, the Iluminati is THE major power, even
if no one else knows it) that fit into the Tuffleverse, but Ive done it more
as an intellectual exercise than out of any real desire to conform. I prefer
gaming in universes of my own creation; that way I dont have to deal with
anyone elses arbitrary limits. Only my OWN arbitrary limits hold me back!
The only exception to this rule is the less-than-serious world of the
ShockForce game. I
like less-than-serious; thats why I came up with the Illuminati for the
Tuffleyverse in the first place. I just cant take gaming that seriously...as
witness the FMA game that I ran last night. Inbred hicks, marines, a gang of
punk kids, a unit of Grey aliens, and a S.W.A.T. team in power armor, trying
to recover a mad professor from a town filled with zombies. If wed had two
more players, the mutants and Elvis would have appeared as well. Its a
shame...Elvis would have kicked some serious ass. No one messes with the King.
No one.
I also tend to enjoy designing sub-optimal forces; they can be a lot of
fun to play. One of my DSII armies is composed of plastic Renegade Legion
tanks, for instance: I designed them to have vritually no armor, but enough
Stealth to reduce their signature to that of a
class one vehicle. Frankly, its not a very cost-effective design. Not
at all. But it was fun to run the Steel Ghosts, no matter how brief the
resulting battles were.
Right now, I have a variety of SGII and FT figures painted up, but I call them
whatever I want for a particular scenario. I usually call my NSL troops
something reasonably generic, like Stellar Federation Marines, and pit them
against some Denizen figures painted up as corporate troops.
> I've designed a couple of minor powers -- the Hanseatic League and
You've got around to designing the Pantropists, have you? Posted
> > I've designed a couple of minor powers -- the Hanseatic League and
Well, perhaps designed is putting it a bit strongly. Made notes on, and
scrawled some modeling ideas about would be more accurate.
Nevertheless, in stream of consciousness form, heres the history of the
Pantropists, lacking any kind of dates or basic coherence:
The Pantropist Society started out as a group of radical environmentalists,
founded in the decades preceding the first FTL jump. Central to their
philosophy was the belief that planets are living, sentient beings, and that
interfering with the ecosystem of a planet is a crime tantamount to murder.
They took this belief to rather ridiculous extremes, declaring their
opposition to the proposed terraforming of Mars out of a desire to protect
the non-existent ecosystem of the red planet.
Instead of terraforming, the Pantropists believed that the PROPER way to
colonize the stars was to genetically engineer human beings into forms that
could live on alien worlds with a minimal amount of impact upon the natural
ecosystems.
For the most part, they were not taken seriously. UN law expressly forbade
genetic experimentation on human beings, and world opinion was pretty firmly
behind this. When the Pantropists produced a pair of 8 year old children with
gills, designed to live and thrive underwater, the outcry was tremendous.
Within a matter of months, the Society had been effectively wiped out. The
more prominent members had been arrested, and the rest (including some very
skilled geneticists) had been driven underground.
The society limped along for a few more years while FTL travel was being
developed. One
by one, the Pantropists fled-off world, bankrolled by supporters who had
managed to keep their connection to the Society a secret.
Over the next several decades, the Pantropists established colonies on five
different worlds. None of these planets would be considered suitable for human
life, but the Society has managed to produce children perfectly suited to
these hostile environments.
They have managed to keep their existence secret, more through luck than
anything else. The fact that theyve chosen to settle worlds that no one with
any sense would have any interest in has been a big help too, of course.
I figure that they are due to be discovered Real Soon Now, and will probably
be mistaken for another race of aliens, at least initially. The younger
generation is intent upon getting out there and saving some of the worlds that
humanity is currently despoiling; when and if they managed to mount such a
campaign, they are likely to have their asses seriously kicked. They dont
have the numbers or the resources to be a serious threat to any real military
force.
The Pantropists will specialize in hit-and-run attacks and commando
raids, hoping to disrupt fledgling colonies. For Stargrunt, Id use Ral
Parthas Psion miniatures. Long OOP, alien creatures that look like
something designed by Wayne Barlowe; these are some really nice figures that
Ive been trying to find a use for.
For DSII and FT, the Pantropists dont have enough forces to really game with.
Their fleet is a handful of converted yachts and merchant ships, and would
be blown to atoms in moments if it came to a stand up fight.
..so its not much, in other words. The Pantropists are not going to be
anyones definition of a major power, by any means. I just wanted to come up
with something that didnt have any connection to any existing nations or
powers. Radical environmental nutjobs seemed like an interesting direction to
take, especially since it would allow me to use some really nice miniatures.
It would take a lot more work (and some painted figures) before I tried to do
anything serious with the idea, though.
I purposely placed my DS2/FT campaign W-a-a-a-a-y on the fringes of
"known space" and populated it with over 50% non-humans so the ships
would be 'design-centric' - Klackons wanting two (or multiples rarely)
*big* Beams on their ships and Nektons taking the Fish-Predator-terror
myths/reality of their amphibian existence (one *even bigger* beam
weapon per ship as a core) and the Mertuns complete fascination with ooodles
of smaller beams on "batteries by the dozen" approach, etc. etc. etc. Even the
Humans are mostly Ratner's Space Marines or StarGuard derived. If I was to use
a canon force it would be ESU or NSL in FT (I
am not a big manuver capable commander - close in and rip a *big* hole
in the other guy is 'fancy' for me. Last one up and running wins.)
In DS2 I have the 'nations' based on weapons preference (NPC - GMS/H,
IJK
- HEL, SAI - DFFG, NEA - MDC, LLP - SLAM, PHR - HVC, RRR - HKP) and
developed a 'over arching philosophy' for each from the implied (to me) values
each weapon system presented.
Canon? Didn't those go out of style in the 22nd century?
Gracias,
> At 06:34 29/10/01 -0600, The_Beast wrote:
To parapharse:
"We are non-cannon, but we live on!
This is only the beginning, we will prepare! We will grow stronger! When the
time is right, we will emerge and take our rightful place
AS THE SUPREME POWER OF THE TUFFLEY-VERSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
I've gone a similar way as Laserlight, and for the same resaons, with New
Israel, Once I read the cannon history fluffs in the rulebooks I knew I had to
try to flesh out NI to my liking. They're the closest to cannon that I've
worked on. I have a couple other groups that could fit
into the cannon universe but are fully invented, if very small - single
planets (The Thousand Nations), or pirates/corporations ( Actuarial
Nightmares/L-7 Interstellar).
When I play FB-only FT, I favor the NSL and the ESU. NI is somewhat
modeled as a faster NSL.
I've tried my hand at from-scratch a couple times, but haven't yet been
satisfied with the results. I do intend someday to try a universe at roughly
twice the mass scale size of FT ( i.e. 150 mass cruisers), but
it will probably have to employ some of the size-cost scaling discussed
on the list a while back.
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
*Giggle*
Stray?? Stray??
Nah, not me. I don't so much stray from the background as rape it completely
and abuse it in such way that, if Mr.Tuffley took the same approach to canon
as another English Game Company I could mention, would have him putting out a
hit on me.
But let's face it, Byzantines in Space are cool. And they let me assume a
wealthy enough power to use the tactics I like. And it does work if you assume
that
robots replaced the peasant/serf class.
> ship/tank/uniform designs (or coolest name), and
None of them have a doctrine per se, at least cannonically speaking. Everyone
assumes doctrine will be based on the dominant power in that political
unit--FSE will use French tactics (Surrender to
everything that speaks German), NSL will use German tactics (Let's invade
Poland!), ESU will use
Sino-Soviet tactics (ie, none whatsoever), and NAC
will use some hybrid of US and UK tactics (except that
American-recruited units will not stop for tea instead
of taking Caen).
Nah, not me. I don't so much stray from the background as rape it completely
and abuse it in such way that, if Mr.Tuffley took the same approach to canon
as another English Game Company I could mention, would have him putting out a
hit on me.
I guess this is not the best time to tell you........
In message <200110300304.f9U340O37036@soda.csua.berkeley.edu>
> johncrim@voicenet.com wrote:
[snip]
> IÂve designed a couple of minor powers -- the Hanseatic League and
Only my OWN arbitrary
> limits hold me back!
[snip]
> John Crimmins
Well, you're addition of the Illuminati (not to mention Ken Hites' Suppressed
Transmission column in Pyramid) has inspired me to think on the following bit
of insanity...
Lets see if we can fit the rest of the INWO Secret Masters into the
Tufflyverse (all conjectural, as they are _secret_ masters... if they
exist... which they don't ;-).
I'm using a lot of innuendo here :-) I'll post clearer answers later (if
I'm still here :-) (The powers I'm thinking of need not be canon - just
well publicised on this list).
Of course, some of you may come up with other, better, answers :-)
Discordians - Dislike order and social structures - who do you think.
The UFOs - well, we have three known alien races in FB2, OTOH, UFOs,
are, by definition, unidentified.
Adepts of Hermes - Well, current theory _does_, possibly, predict
someway of circumventing the 'lightspeed barrier', but to do so would
require advanced technology... _sufficiently_ advanced technology.
Clarke's Third Rule "Any Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic". And who developed (or claimed to have developed) FTL?
Shangri-La - frankly, this one's got me stumped :-(
Society of Assassins - historically, there is an obvious candidate here,
so its probably wrong :-)
Gnomes of Zurich - they are rich, mysteriously so.
Bermuda Triangle - they make ships disappear - well, it wouldn't
surprise me if a faction has multiple faces.
The Network - one possible contender, but IIRC it hasn't been mentioned
recently.
Servants of Cthulhu - hmm... lets think - big, tentacles, lives
underwater, doesn't move much - sound like anyone we know? :-)
So, can you guess who I'm guessing is who?
> Nah, not me. I don't so much stray from the
> Discordians - Dislike order and social structures - who do you
Can't be the AE as we *like* social structures. We have a lot of
them.... <g>
> The UFOs - well, we have three known alien races in FB2, OTOH, UFOs,
ORC have saucers
> Shangri-La - frankly, this one's got me stumped :-(
In message <00c301c16199$a3f7c860$33071f3f@pavilion>
> "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
> > Discordians - Dislike order and social structures - who do you
Yes, but that's what we'd _expect_ them to say, OTOH, if that is what
we'd expect them to say, then we'd expect them to say something else,
_but_ .....
> > The UFOs - well, we have three known alien races in FB2, OTOH, UFOs,
And are undocumented, in fact, are almost totally unknown... :-)
> > Shangri-La - frankly, this one's got me stumped :-(
I have since thought of another possibility as well... :-)
HOW many people you got on that island? <grin>
On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:35:17 +1100 Derek Fulton
<derekfulton@bigpond.com> writes:
> --=====================_13022844==_.ALT
> At 05:50 31/10/01 -0500, Glenn wrote:
Did we mention Tasmania started off as a penal colony:)
And here I always thought that meant PRISON.....
Brian
"The Irish are the only race of people on Earth for which psychoanalysis is of
no use."
- S. Freud
> From: Derek Fulton <derekfulton@bigpond.com>
OK, so it wasn't as funny as I first thought.... sorry gang.
Brian
"The Irish are the only race of people on Earth for which psychoanalysis is of
no use."
- S. Freud
> From: "Brian Bilderback" <bbilderback@hotmail.com>
On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:06:19 +1100 Derek Fulton
<derekfulton@bigpond.com> writes:
> At 05:50 31/10/01 -0500, Glenn wrote:
I thought Australia had it's first 'population boom' when Britain let the
Americans escape (They're not going anywhere, there are woods full of tribal
warriors to the west...) and found it could no longer could send
it's 'criminals/victims' to the area between Canada and Mexico....
Maybe that's the real reason behind the Wild West.
OOOH, that gives me an idea for another group of humans (anarchistic counter
culture types) for my campaign... Oh yeah, the AE staked out that angle first,
didn't they...
Gracias,
> OOOH, that gives me an idea for another group of humans (anarchistic
Actually most of the AE population lives in sovs with pretty conservative
laws. It just happens that the more colorful sovs get more press. That's why
you hear very little about the Believers Fellowship (pop: 2 million), and
quite a lot about Jack Old Ron (pop: 1), the Radical Lesbian Collective (pop:
0, although they got up to about 400 before the social fabric frayed too
badly), the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of Marxgrad (pop: 200 or
thereabouts), etc. The exception is Forward Power, which has pretty
conservative laws but produces antimatter; you mostly hear about them, of
course, when there's an Unfortunate Incident.
Well, it was; but since the population of the "island" is growing we will
leave it there.
Actually, I couldn't think of an appropriate (Yes, that sometimes comes
to my mind - sinks low enough shall we say) response that, you should
pardon the expression, "fit" the humor. I just laughed and deleted... But then
we know about my "...sense of humor..." don't we?
Gracias,
Glenn/Triphibious@juno.com
This is my Science Fiction Alter Ego E-mail address.
Historical - Warbeads@juno.com
Fantasy and 6mm - dwarf_warrior@juno.com
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:22:11 -0800 "Brian Bilderback"
> <bbilderback@hotmail.com> writes: