[DS] Engineering systems size

Do the various vehicle engineering systems take up space inside of a vehicle?
I haven't been able to find mention of this in the book. Is it there or is it
time to Make Stuff Up?

Thanks,

> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Ndege Diamond wrote:

> Do the various vehicle engineering systems take up space inside of a

It's time to Make Stuff Up. (the formal phrase is House Rules...)

As it stands, you could have a vehicle that could deploy bridges, preform
CEV & armour recovery operations, _and_ mount weaponry, because only the
guns take up space.

Stopgap rule ideas: Bridgelayers: Bridge takes up the whole damn hull. Size of
bridge carried (therefore weight limit on bridge) is equal to the
vehicle's hull size. Only the 'free' APSW is allowed - maybe not even
that.

CEV/armour repair package: Don't know. Biggish - call it 10 to 15 cap
points. I haven't got my DS2 book n front of me.

Just my $0.02,

> Brian Burger wrote:

> Stopgap rule ideas: Bridgelayers: Bridge takes up the whole damn hull.

I wouldn't even mount that. Where do you put it? You don't put it on top, 'coz
the verdammt bridge is on top. Who fires it? No one has a spare hand to fire
it.

> CEV/armour repair package: Don't know. Biggish - call it 10 to 15 cap

I cringe every time those two are stuck together. Let me suggest:

ARV (Armored Recovery Vehicle): Dependant on size class of vehicle recovered:
1: 5 2: 10 3: 15 4: 20 5: 25

IOW, to recover a LAV (size 2) you can use a dedicated LAV variant. To recover
a Main Battle Tank, (size 4) you need a dedicated MBT variant.

Combat Engineer Vehicle: I split this out by function. Demolition
Mine Dection/Removal
Digging/Construction (Scoop arm and dozer blade for digging fighting
positions) Minelaying.

Let me suggest, as a working concept Demo: 6 Mine Detection: 2
Const/Digging:4
Mine Removal:3

Of course, then we have to work up points costs for each of these capabilities
seperately.

> On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Brian Burger wrote:

this has bothered me occasionally, and there are a few other things which
it applies to, such as in-vehicle medical and command posts (not c3i
systems). i'll go look these up...

> Stopgap rule ideas: Bridgelayers: Bridge takes up the whole damn hull.

another way to put this is to say that a bridging system takes up cp equal to
its size times 5.

> CEV/armour repair package: Don't know. Biggish - call it 10 to 15 cap

for recovery, i'd say something like 3 x size of vehicle to be recovered. john
atkinson has 5 x size, which would mean dedicated ARVs. this makes sense, so
we should probably go with it. i hate to say it, but... he is
the ... ex... pert... here. phew. that was tough :-).

as for a general engineering package, i just say 8 cp, like all the other big
special packages (hq, troops). i think breaking it down with the degree john
proposes is unnecessary; to use a borrow from the man, it is "below ds2's
level of granularity". after all, that would make engineering stuff as
detailed as guns, and that's not appropriate in a game, unlike real life.

Tom

> On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Thomas Anderson wrote:

<ot>is there a standard for what mailers put at the top of a replied-to
message, or are we all using pine?</ot>

> > > Do the various vehicle engineering systems take up space inside of

now done. these are the things in the ds2 points value lists which do not have
sizes specified in the rules, as far as i can see:

stealth (i assume it's size 0, as it is electronics)
in-vehicle artillery observer
minelaying system
backup systems (assume size 0 - it may even say this)
cavalry (in case you want to put llamas in your dropship)

plus the engineering systems.

i suppose we've never tried to use any of these things, and so never hit this
problem; has anyone ever fielded a minelayer?

the cavalry in vehicle question is serious: in the climactic act of the Dan
Dare 'venus story' (the first story, which didn't have a formal name), the
deadlock in the war between the Treens and the Therons, which has
ground to a halt as hi-tech rays have disabled all machinery, is broken
by a huge UN assault which parachutes spaceships full of cavalry, archers and
pikemen onto the planet; these lads are not affected by the locking rays and
proceed to beat up the Treens. up the fleet!

Tom

> Thomas Anderson wrote:

> > CEV/armour repair package: Don't know. Biggish - call it 10 to 15

Actually, I'm Not. ARVs are not engineerng vehicles. They belong to the
Ordnance Corps or somesuch. Different bunch of folks altogether.
I'm just going off what I know about tanks in general--almost every
batallion with recovery vehicles (in a maintinence platoon) has recovery
vehicles based on the primary vehicle used by the batallion.

> as for a general engineering package, i just say 8 cp, like all the

Depends on what you want to do...:) I'll be running a deliberate
attack during GZG-ECC, with the defenders having some serious obstacle
options (I'll be acting as the Staff Engineer for both sides in addition to
Umping), and this might come into play.

I guess the short answer is that I don't want to see someone out there with an
ACE mini (Scotia makes 'em, I got some) out there claiming he's blowing up
bunkers, putting out fires, and recovering tanks all at the same time.

> These are the things in the ds2 points value lists which do not
No size needed as it's either electronics or advanced vehicle design to shrink
the whole vehicle.

> in-vehicle artillery observer

> minelaying system

Ammunition and resupply Quartermaster Martin takes charge of ammunition
resupply. These adjusted capacity requirements allow a vehicle the same size
as the artillery vehicle to easily resupply the artillery vehicle to its full
capacity. A very light artillery load requires a capacity of 1. A light
artillery load requires a capacity of 2. A medium artillery load requires a
capacity of 4. A heavy artillery load requires a capacity of 6. A very heavy
artillery load requires a capacity of 8. A Mine layer system takes up 4
capacity points and one mine marker, used by a minelayer, takes up 4 capacity.

FASCAM is a problem in my system, as the bigger artillery should be able to
deliver a larger area of mines. Also, the smaller artillery should deliver a
smaller area of effect. I get around it for the moment, by only allowing
medium artillery (M109 equivalents) to deliver mines or FASCAM, while
reserving my heavy artillery to break up and destroy armoured formations.

> backup systems (assume size 0 - it may even say this)
    Just spare electronics [fuzes? maybe! :-)] of zero capacity. In my
modifications I assume that the +30% is only for offensive, direct fire
weapons, as the list of systems in the points cost makes no sense and only
offensive capability is lost when the Firer/Target Systems Down chit is
drawn.

> cavalry (in case you want to put llamas in your dropship)
I would suggest double or triple capacity to put those llamas or elephants in
the drop ship, but I've got no rule for this.

> has anyone ever fielded a minelayer?
    Only FASCAM - mines delivered by artillery.

> John M. Atkinson <john.m.atkinson@erols.com> wrote:

How about dozer blade by itself as 2 capacity points? I've read somewhere that
a tank formation (can't remember size) had one or two tanks fitted with
bulldozer blades. A dozer blade would allow digging of hull down positions for
tanks and scraping away FASCAM from roads and other clear areas. If the lot
costs 100 points, then individual parts will cost a part of that, plus a bit
extra perhaps.

Demolitions: 6 cap 30 points. Mine Detection: 2 cap 10 points
Construction/Digging: 4 cap 20 points
Mine Removal: 3 cap 15 points Doze blade: 2 cap 10 points

or capacity points times 5. What do you think?

> Andrew & Alex wrote:

> How about dozer blade by itself as 2 capacity points? I've read

There's construction and there's construction.:) Both the
construction and mine removal bits include a dozer-blade--mine removal
assumes you've also added teeth to turn it into a mine plow as well.

> If the lot costs 100 points, then individual parts will cost a

I'm getting a total of 17... No, wait, Construction includes Dozer Blade. OK.
This looks fine to me. I'd also permit the Demolitions to
have a 3" range--although with a crewed vehicle target, it has to roll
with a basic firecontrol. That represents a big f'ing gun which isn't designed
to hunt tanks, but Cthulu help one that gets hit.