Hi everyone,
Just got back this evening from DragonFlight 2000 in Seattle. Very cool
convention, lots of great games, interesting people - including several
listmembers.
Mark 'Hauptmann' was there - he played in my FR! scenario, then we had a
good 1500pt/side FT game, my Phalon vs his not-Kzinti (can't remember
your
name for them, Mark!). The game was mostly a draw - the PH plasma bolts
were a rude shock to his squadron, then we worked each other over well in
close-range fire before splitting off. I lost one BDN & one DH with no
other damaged ships, and Mark lost two CCs and had his DN damaged a bit.
Also met Stiltman - Eric. Had a short, unsatisfactory game of FT - I got
swarmed by fighters, then walked into my own & his plasma bolts, then left the
table with only my BDN surviving... I always play vector, and the larger burst
radius of cinematic PBLs caught me. (I prefer vector, it's
more interesting & challenging...) Wild contrast in playing styles - my
group & I tend to use fairly FB1/2 standard ships, vector, and all the
fighter morale/endurance rules. Stiltman uses massive
mixed-and-genre-tech
ships, cinematic, and masses of fighters without any of the limiting
rules... do you have _any_ designs lighter than about 300 mass, Eric? :>
Overall, a great convention. I took a lot of pictures, and I'll write a full
report, both of which I'll post to my webpage pretty soon.
> At 10:23 PM 8/28/00 -0700, Brian Burger wrote:
Hiya Brian! It was nice to make your acquaintance!
> - he played in my FR! scenario, then we had a
K'rathri, the "Not Wing Commander" fleet. :-)
> The game was mostly a draw - the PH plasma bolts
CHs, actually <G>. I had a 'lancer' fleet armed mostly with pulse torps,
and the general fleet design is strictly FB1 / Cinematic. BTW, thanks
for
adjusting your play to Cinematic movement for me - I hadn't tested *any*
of the designs under Vector.
... and you are right, I *was* shocked by the amount of damage that your fleet
could dish out in a single attack, especially from the cruisers and escorts.
Here's the TOE I used:
(details can be found at http://www.sfcmd.com/fullthrust/fleet/)
[1x] Gr'kakh DNA
[2x] Gr'kaahri CH
[2x] Jalkekhra DH
You're fortunate I didn't surprise you with a Gr'krehri DNG and a pair of
Gr'kakhri CHGs. I would have loved to see how you would have handled a
pincer attack of 32 MT missiles at the same time. :-)
G'day Brian
Great to hear you had fun!
> I always play vector, and the
The what??? Would've caught me by surprise too! Was this a house-rule
you adopted for cinematic or have I misunderstood here?
One question though, why do you think cinematic is less challenging (not
arguing with you just curious)?
Cheers
Beth
> >I always play vector, and the
> The what??? Would've caught me by surprise too! Was this a house-rule
The way I understood it, was that he has a house rule whereby plasma bolts
only affect a 3 MU radius rather than a 6 MU radius. When we played by the 6
MU radius something got goofed in his perspective or something.
> on 8/29/00 11:09, stiltman@teleport.com at stiltman@teleport.com wrote:
> I always play vector, and the
Ah yes. The 3 (or 4) MU radius recommendation when playing vector due to
ending vector positions for ships being less divergent than if the ship
applied no changes to it's movement. The reverse situation is a pain to
-
being use to the 6 MU regular radius in Cinematic and playing with the
optional limited radius for vector play.
> Also met Stiltman - Eric. Had a short, unsatisfactory game of FT - I
:>
Heh... I'll take issue (good-naturedly) with a thing or two here. ;)
Quick description of forces for the rest of the group: we were playing a
mixed Phalon-and-customhumantech game that was originally intended as a
two-
on-two, each person with roughly twelve to fifteen hundred points' worth
of ships. They split up their Phalon models so that Brian (on their side) had
a BDN, three heavy destroyers, and three frigates, while Corey (on my side)
had a BC, two medium cruisers, and three lighter destroyers. My wife flew a
single giant carrier (at Brian's request), I flew a mass 250 "Fortress I
Class Star Destroyer" (6 FBs, 2 4-arc B3s, 8 6-arc B2s) and two mass 56
"Clam" light assault carriers (4 FBs). I had 14 heavy fighters to your ten
interceptors; you had 11 or 12 dice of plasma to my 8. They contributed
several lava rocks to use as asteroids that were considered absolute
obstructions and used Phalon models; I had a large shoebox full of Micro
Machines minis that my wife and I used and an old Aerotech box that we used
for fighter counters.
I didn't have _that_ many more fighters than you did... I only was left
with three groups and change of heavy fighters after the dogfighting with your
side's interceptors was over, and they never got any chances to attack any of
your ships at all other than those three pipsqueak escorts you were nice
enough to detach a long way away from the main force without fighter cover.
The plasma exchange was the real story of that game. You spreaded yours out
over a wide area, missed with most of it, and flew into what little
_didn't_
miss; I took an eyeball judgment of where you'd have to go, put all of mine on
that spot, and then peeled a turn to avoid both asteroids and my own plasma
all at once. You edged only three of my Phalons, three of yours, and clean
missed the STD; I hit your entire force and none of my own. All of your
escorts and fighters were dead, your BDN was thresholded, and her carrier
wasn't far from threshold; I had no ships dead, one thresholded cruiser, with
a number of scuff marks on the rest and 22 heavy fighters left with two shots.
It was after the plasma turn that you bailed.
I don't know if the playing styles were all that different... we each brought
a few things to the table that the other didn't typically play with (I brought
fighters, you brought asteroids, and per your objections I simply picked out
ships that only used "standard" FB1 tech). Yeah, I _do_ tend to use a
fair number of fighters, but I also play fleets that use none at all, and I
don't think I could be accused of just plain not knowing how to handle a
ship-to-ship
action.:)
And yes, I _do_ have designs below 300 mass. :) My workhorse units
tend to
be between 200 and 280 mass, but in fairness, it _is_ true that I tend
to look down my nose at escort sized ships. My experience has generally been
that they tend to be easily shredded (and their weapons removed from the
strategic equation) before they can do much whenever there's bigger guys
around. I do fly (large) escorts, but they're pretty much always equipped with
needle beams, because that's about the only thing that escorts can
meaningfully hurt an enemy with before they get reduced to so much fine dust.
As time has gone on, though, it's also true that I've started to like fast
battlecruisers with needle beams in this role instead.
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 stiltman@teleport.com wrote:
> > >I always play vector, and the
In FB2, PBLs have a stated burst radius of 6". Later in the PBL column, it is
strongly suggested that in vector the radius be cut to 4" or even 3". We use
the 3" radius with vector.
I maneuvered my squadron to be right behind my own PBL bursts - if
they'd been the 3" vector bursts I'm used to... I got caught by the 6"
cinematic bursts in use.
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2000, Beth Fulton wrote:
> G'day Brian
It was a great con - seemed a bit quieter than last year, but still lots
of interesting games & people. Good to meet some more listmembers, as well.
> >I always play vector, and the
See my other post - it's not really a house rule.
> One question though, why do you think cinematic is less challenging
Vector is so much more flexible - you can be scooting along in one
direction and firing in another direction entirely. It 'feels' more like
space combat to me - FT with cinematic felt much like the ACW naval game
I'd played earlier in the convention, not really like a space game... personal
thing, I know, but I do prefer vector.
For 'challenging' - try getting a ship or squadron thru an asteroid
field using vector! We've even done some vector orbital stuff, and that's
enough fun to make the combat nearly superflous. Watching a big SDN spiral up
out of low orbit is pretty cool.
Brian - yh728@victoria.tc.ca -
- http://warbard.iwarp.com/games.html -
> Cheers
G'day
> In FB2, PBLs have a stated burst radius of 6". Later in the PBL
I realised this late last night... must remember to have brain on this planet
more often as it'll avoid the REALLY dumb questions;)
Cheers
Beth
G'day Brian
> See my other post - it's not really a house rule.
See mine about getting my brain out of neutral before engaging "dumb question
mode";)
> For 'challenging' - try getting a ship or squadron thru an asteroid
We've had a few spiral ascents ourselves and that asteroid stuff does sound
fun! Were they mobile asteroids (some centre of mass of the table they moved
around??) or stationary?
Cheers
Beth
> on 8/29/00 18:15, Brian Burger at yh728@victoria.tc.ca wrote:
> It was a great con - seemed a bit quieter than last year, but still
Stop that. Now you're making me regret my decision to not fly out to
Dragonflight this year.
> Vector is so much more flexible - you can be scooting along in one
Another thing I like about vector is fast ships still have an advantage but
anyone with main drives (well thrusters in this case) can spin around so
getting into a ships rear arc may still be possible but staying there in the
following turns takes finesse.
> For 'challenging' - try getting a ship or squadron thru an asteroid
So how do you determine whether you've navigate the field properly (I'm
curious about the method here)? Do you see if a straight line from the
starting point of movement and the ending point of movement intersects an
obstacle that's hazardous to it's longevity?
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2000, Kevin Walker wrote:
> on 8/29/00 18:15, Brian Burger at yh728@victoria.tc.ca wrote:
I'll be there next year, anyway. I'm also probably going to make the
Seattle spring con - the one in April. Can't make the November one,
though.
> > Vector is so much more flexible - you can be scooting along in one
Vector gives bigger ships an advantage, certainly.
> > For 'challenging' - try getting a ship or squadron thru an asteroid
That's right - straight line from start of movement to endpoint after
movement orders are carried out. Asteroids have, for us, infinite mass &
'hull' points, so no matter how big your ship is, ramming a rock = dead
ship... I like occassional asteroids on the table, but several of my gaming
group are of the 'several dozen is not enough' camp... Watched Star Wars too
many times, they have!
Real fun is trying to keep a squadron in some sort of formation while
navigating past asteroids!
The asteroids were stationary. Just thinking of moving asteriods in vector
gives me the chills.
Corey
> At 10:29 AM 2000-08-30 +1000, you wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, -MWS- wrote:
> At 10:23 PM 8/28/00 -0700, Brian Burger wrote:
Always nice to put faces to listnames!
> > - he played in my FR! scenario, then we had a
They'd work OK - you can 'optimize' ships for vector, but none of the FB
ships are, and your K'rathri are FB-like in style.
> ... and you are right, I *was* shocked by the amount of damage that
PH escorts & cruisers are far, far more dangerous than their basic mass
would suggest. An all-Close-tuned PH DH can do 12d of damage inside 12",
plus it's got a Class 1 PBL... You do pay for it all, though - that PH
DH is 150pts. There are human CLs that're cheaper.
> Here's the TOE I used:
I had FB2 stock Phalons: 1x BDN, 2x CC, 2x DH, for I believe 1510pts.
> You're fortunate I didn't surprise you with a Gr'krehri DNG and a pair
That would have been ugly, especially seeing as none of my ships had ADFC and
PH PDS isn't the best. Of course, any of my ship that survive the missles are
going to shred your empty missle boats...
We'll have to try and organize some sort of full FT event for the next Seattle
con.
To speak to the sage of running into asteroids, speak to my brother. From my
experience, it is very easy to calculate how to navigate asteroid fields. To
clarify, we usually run with about 5" between the asteroids and usually in
several distinct groups. Planets with gravity make it even more interesting.
We usually run, and I believe this is the offical rule, is that if a line
between the starting and beginning positions intersect the asteroid, or other
object, the ship has met a rocky end and the cursing of the stupidity of
admirial are heard sector wide.
I have several scratch-built asteroid ships, and they blend in real well
with our asteroids, seeing both are mounted on stands. IHMO, base everything
that is not a ship on square stands to avoid confusion. And mount them low and
your ships high. Cardboard and nails work well for this. For asteriods use
lava rocks that you would use in a BBQ.
Hope that answers your questions,
Corey
> At 08:43 PM 2000-08-29 -0500, you wrote:
As for optimization for vector, you can decrease the number of arcs you need
dramatically, to usually just one, and that works. Comments?
G'day guys,
> PH escorts & cruisers are far, far more dangerous than their basic
That's why its much safer to compare cost of ships rather than mass when
using the PH - scenarios based on size class "escorts do z" for instance
are a nightmare if you bring the PH in.
Cheers
Beth
> Brian Burger wrote:
> PH escorts & cruisers are far, far more dangerous than their basic
Which is why you should look at their basic *cost* and not their basic
*mass*... roughly speaking, each Phalon class is equivalent to the next
bigger human class - Phalon DDs match human CLs, Phalon BBs match human
DNs and so on.
> An all-Close-tuned PH DH can do 12d of damage inside 12",
...assuming of course that it can get to within 12" without being shot up
(beyond that range it only has its PBL every other turn), that it can keep the
enemy in its (F) arc (since one of its two Pulsers is (F) only), and that
isn't attacked by enemy fighters (or sometimes
missiles) on the turn it does close get into range :-)
> plus it's got a Class 1 PBL... You do pay for it all, though - that PH
Yep. And the Phalon DH is easier to destroy than most human CLs, too.
> You're fortunate I didn't surprise you with a Gr'krehri DNG and a
Depends on what rules you use for the MTMs. Unless you give them a
secondary move, PBL-1s tend to be quite effective... just take care
that the enemy fighters don't shoot your point-defence plasma bolts
down! <g>
Regards,
G'day Corey,
> As for optimization for vector, you can decrease
I wouldn't bother - its often harder to get yourself pointing exactly
where you want in vector (despite how it may seem and especially if you have a
good opponent). It also massively curtails your own options come fire time...
stuck facing port when your last portside enemy has just blown or
when the scarier (more important target) is to the starboard. If 1-arc
weapons were a dead sure vector thing then more designs would have them as
the sole feature and in my experience you just don't see that - then
again maybe Oerjan's database will prove me wrong.
Cheers
Beth
> We've had a few spiral ascents ourselves and that asteroid stuff does
We use stationary asteroids. Brian has enough problems maneuvering around then
as it is. I figure if we had moving ones I'd never actually have to engage in
direct fire. Just let him loose ship moving across the table:)
> On Sat, 2 Sep 2000, Jaime Tiampo wrote:
> > We've had a few spiral ascents ourselves and that asteroid stuff
Oh, thank you Jaime, thank you. Gods, half my gaming group is on the list now,
and they're all slagging me... No more telling lies about what happens in our
games...
Didn't realize you were on the list, Jaime... welcome aboard - I think.
:>
> On Sat, 2 Sep 2000, Jaime Tiampo wrote:
> > We use stationary asteroids. Brian has enough problems maneuvering
> Oh, thank you Jaime, thank you. Gods, half my gaming group is on the
Heh heh... well, the commentary about your navigational skills in asteroid
fields _does_ explain a thing or two about flying into your own plasma
at the con, too...;)
j/k