Dirtside II FMA Enhancement.

Okay here we go again:

Andrew wrote in response to Brian Bell
> Nope. Jim's enhancements with my substitution (he's just agreed to

It's not a substitution, its a fix of a downright error! I intended to keep
the damage resolution as close to the original rules as possible, Andrew
caught the flaw where I had mis-calculated a D10 instead of a D6

> Andrew wrote:

> After much thought and headahche this might work better.
That's only really needed if you and your opponent decide to add the dice
together which takes longer. I would just choose the option of picking the
highest dice each time, which I think is quicker and gets rid of the
bell curve, which I dislike. But each to their own... :-)

I am leaning more to the static armor method myself. It conforms better with
the original DS2 method and allows the use of the tied dice critical hits.
Keeping a large weapon from doing multiple hits dosen't reflect the chit draw
system, as I said I have drawn three Mobilities and two systems down on
the same tank. Effective, but anti-climatic.

Besides, adding damage dice together dosen't take that long especially when
compared to a static number, and rolling multiple dice and picking the
highest gets into bizarre exponential and/or inverse exponential
statistics that I really don't have the inclination to figure out and compare
to the original DS2 chit draw system.

I think we can agree to two systems for number figuring, depending on what
rules your group considers more accurate. The first is the added damage dice
vs armor level x 3 (Static Armor method) This would use the tied criticals I
proposed in my previous post. The second Quick-and-Dirty method would be
to roll dice for all levels and choose the highest, although slightly less
accurate to special hits, and possibly statisticly (I'd like to hear from
some of the more intense propeller-heads out there about that, it may be
more accurate, but we wont KNOW until someone figures it out.)

Andrew wrote in response to Brian Bell
> (The diffrences between the original accelerator and the current FMA

I don't agree with this. Two main reasons Reason 1:
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Something to think about:-
One roll of the attack dice does not necessairily mean a single shot,
just a single attack. The shortest time I have ever seen for any Sci-Fi
wargame turn is ten seconds, and a tank that is in the open for all of it's
move may be firing the whole time, not to mention those autocannon weapons
that have cyclic rates better expressed in rounds per second! DS2 has a
variable time length so we cannot express exactly how many times a vehicle is
hit per attack. With this in mind it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a
tank targeted by a large weapon (may not be a large bore size but a high ROF
on a single action**) may certainly take crippling hits to mobility, sensors,
AND take enough raw damage to give it a damaged result in the same attack. (I
have had this happen to me twice, and on my enemies three times. so it's not
as rare as you might think.)

** Even a large bore may use cannister or beehive ammo to cover the target in
shot, and let us not forget the power of explosive rounds. Remember any
classed weapon (1 through 5) that can be used Anti-Infantry (All but HKP
and GMS) are assumed to be of either rapid fire, explosive, or gargantuan
shotgun nature.

The power of abstraction - Anything is justifiable!
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*

Reason 2: More imporatntly, this dosen't reflect the chit draw system.
Multiple criticals are definately possible, not to mention sometimes
irritating (The 5 mobility his I drew after firing a MDC 5 at short range.
That has only happened to me once, but it is possible).

***Point of gameplay-
Systems Down AND Immobilized who needs to worry about a damaged result?
Anyone with Backup Systems and/or Armored Engineering Vehicles, that's
who. Backup systems can repair systems down but not immobilized or Damaged.
That means a tank effected by all three counters will only be able to bring
it's cannons back on line at a reduced accuracy without outside help, severely
hampering most tank operations, even when acting as an unwilling field
emplacement. I use an optional rule that an AEV must roll once for every
systems effect on the damaged vehicle, so the tank that takes all three
specials may end up with any one two or still struggle with all three systems
effects.

As to Brian Bell's query about the DS2 Acceelerator: That was the post that I
started working with in the first place. I noticed almost immediately that the
DFFG lost 40% of its chit draw firepower using a D12 instead of a D20 (or 2 x
D10). I use DFFG's in my urban combat tanks, and those weapons are expensive
enough as it is, if they lose ANY firepower I may be forced to
re-think wether or not to simply artillery shell any urban environment I
come across, and use infantry alone to clear individual buildings left
standing. Also the HEL damage die was the one that should have been applied
against Abalative armor not standard armor, but the rulebook places the
abalative impacts before standard impacts so a degree of confusion is
understandable (I have had my own on this topic the D6 instead of my
mis-calculated D10 for armor).
Another thing I endeavored to do was to keep the damage dice resolution
constant for all damage resolutions, from infantry to artillery and nuclear to
biochemical, by keeping the dice equavalent to a portion of the chits in the
pot (25% D4, 50% D6, 75% D8, 100% D10) so that anything I didn't actually
cover in the text could be figured from my methods.

Rant Rant Rant.... We WILL solve this in our lifetime! Actually we have been
making wonderful progress for backwards engineering a rule. When I was in
high school it would take us one, maybe two all-weekend sessions of
nothing but arguing to get this much done. I don't think that we have
exchanged nearly as many hours, and certainly not raised blood pressure as
high.

Anyways I am looking forward to input on this post, I'd like to hear the
comments, criticisms, compliments, paytests,ect. of those other than Andrew
and myself, I feel as though we are the only two that play DS2 or want a dice
impact system. I would really like to hear from someone at GZG so we can
better get a handle on the spirit of the rules (Other than have a good time),
I think that we are getting down to the point where which hair we split and
where might be better defined by the originaly intended effect of the rules.

______
Final note: I read someone wondering why HKPs arent effected by reactive
armor. Here's why:

HKP's aren't effected by reactive armor due to the fact that they don't
use a shaped charge. Modern Anti-Tank shaped charge weapons work
throwing a cone of metal to create a hole in the armor into which the warhead
releases an incindary compound into the chamber behind the armor it hit (ammo
engines cockpit, ext.) and igniting the compund destroying the tank from the
inside out (Goes in like a dime, comes out like a financial institution.)
Reactive armor prematurely detonates the warhead before it hits the armor
protecting the chamber and spraying the compund over the outside of the tank
where it is least effective. Hyper Kenetic Penetrators are just that, giant
APDU tipped javelins that spear the offending tank. Larger HKPs have a delayed
fuse explosive that detonates the javelin once it is stuck inside the tank.
Reactive armor dosen't detonate the javelin fast enough to make it avoid
hitting the tank anyways, penetrating the critical armor and spearing the
components behind it.

If anyone at GZG disagrees with my PSB I'd like to know.

[snip]
> Anyways I am looking forward to input on this post, I'd like to hear

Well, I've been skimming through all this as it is posted (and saving some
bits for more detailed reading and consideration later), but I do have a few
comments. 1) While I realise some players simply don't like it on principle,
the chit
system WORKS. Given that, why replace it with a dice-and-chart system
that is actually MORE complicated? OK, the chits take a few seconds to draw
from the pot, but you then have all your results right there in front of you,
end of story. The dice system proposed could, at an extreme, actually require
players to have upwards of FIFTY dice available for the game (there is
concievably a case where both players could have to roll five each of the same
die type for a single shot). The systems that we have been proposing and
working on (posted in part in the "DS Lite" discussions) don't make any
attempt to replicate the
chit-draw system - they replace it entirely with a dice system that is
very
much quicker and simpler, mostly single-die rolls. This is more suited
to large, fast games where you don't want to get stuck in too much detail. So,
as far as an [OFFICIAL] line goes, our recommendation is to stick with
the chits for detailed games, and go with a greatly-simplified dice
system for big fast games. Of course, none of this should stop you doing
whatever you want in your own
games - that's what it's all about!  :-)

> ______
Here's
> why:
Reactive
> armor prematurely detonates the warhead before it hits the armor

This was pretty much the intention. The HKP is inspired by the similar weapon
in one of the later Slammers' books, an osmium penetrator round propelled by a
plasma charge in the gun! The idea is that Reactive armour, designed to
disrupt HEAT rounds (as above) won't have much effect on a solid shot kinetic
penetrator. Whether this is correct or PSB, I'm sure several people will tell
us!

> Ground Zero Games wrote:

> [snip]

Agreed. This is why my FMA Enhancement
(http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/ds2/ds2fma.html) had just 3 dice
rolled for any attack. 2 by the attacker (Power Die and Impact Die) and 1 for
the defender (Armor Die). No looking at charts, no multiplication, no
addition, just looking for the higher die. True, the odds changed, but was
very quick.

By the way, just to make it official, My idea had no intention of infringing
on the FMA copyright. It should be obvious that I was borrowing both the idea
and term of FMA for my enhancement idea. And all rights are hereby transfered
to Ground Zero Games.

---

> Ground Zero Games wrote:

Yes, this is exactly what I mean. If you want a dice system to replace the
chits, it should be fast and simple even at the expense of some detail. BTW, I
think I may have come up with an idea that just requires a single opposed roll
(1 die each for attacker and defender), but still incorporates weapon type
variation, weapon size class, armour types, armour classes and range as
variables; I'll post it once I've checked it through a bit
more....
> By the way, just to make it official, My idea had no intention of

That's OK, Brian - I think everyone realises that stuff posted on this
list is for the benefit of all players. Thanks, anyway.