Fog of war, hidden units, hide'n'seek etc. are all fun. IMHO, the single
most fun aspect of playing Steel Panthers (the original -- I don't do
modern) was the agony of trying to find out where the enemy was before he
found you...
Unfortunately, hidden things is where computer games excel and miniatures
suck.
Boardgamers have double-blind (though even that has its share of
problems), but our problem is heightened by not having a discrete playing
ground (i.e. no hexes), and further in games like FT where the exact heading
is important in addition to location.
Who can supply two gaming tables with the exact same terrain?
Hidden movement would be nice, but IMHO practical considerations preclude
actual playable implementation in miniatures games...
When was the last time you saw a miniatures game about submarine warfare?
(Apparently TTG makes one, but it's one of theirs I don't have) WWII carrier
warfare?
PB(e)M, OTOH, effectively turns the game into a computer game in this
regard -- you get hidden stuff and can hide horribly complex calculus in
program subroutines, but you lose the minis and the visual spectacle (and
no, scanned images of miniatures don't help ;-)
I guess it's about having your cake and eating it too...
> Mikko Kurki-Suonio wrote:
> Boardgamers have double-blind (though even that has its share of
FT, yes. But for DSII it's pretty irrelevant. For 'discrete playing ground',
try using a coordinate system, and for your
fixed-weapons-carriers, give a degree facing using an arbitrary north.
> Hidden movement would be nice, but IMHO practical considerations
As long as you're dashing from cover to cover, why? Why not, if you have two
honest players and a referee,[1]
> When was the last time you saw a miniatures game about submarine
Space considerations preclude WWII carrier warfare unless you adopt a ground
scale so large that your carrier task force can be simulated using specks of
dust.
But to address the real complaint, if you are playing Dirtside in it's
published background, or most other SF backgrounds with any real thought put
into them, you have a LOT to take into consideration. Sattelite
recon, aerospace fighters with camera pods, ground-based sensors from
radar on up, SIGINT, LRRPs, and the all-important drones--the US Force
XXI structure has a company of UAVs organic at the BRIGADE level, and more at
each additional echelon. That's a lot of sensors focused on the battlefield.
Hidden movement would have to figure out how to deal with the information
warfare being fought across the whole em spectrum, from orbit down to the 6"
seismic sensors dropped off by the scout platoon on each hill. Either you put
in so many complicated rules that the players spend more time acting as sensor
operators, analysts, and S2 officer that they can't focus on killing the
enemy, or you abstract it to the point that it's just another dice roll. Most
of this stuff is far, far beyond the purview of the ordinary batallion
commander(ie, the level of command your average DSII game simulated), and both
technical and extremely boring besides.
> "John M. Atkinson" wrote:
Oh look! First our Mikko makes a comeback, then our John A returns. All in the
same week! What are the odds?
WHo else are we missing? :-)
Mk
[quoted original message omitted]
> "John M. Atkinson" wrote:
There are a handful of us up here: Nyrath, Noam (though he's more in Columbia,
not B'more), Dave Raynes (you haven't met), myself. Noam's around, but I think
he *might* be still busy with his newborn son, future commander of the NI
fleets.
Anyway, this weekend no good for me. I'll be in Cass, WVa, helping
out with a resurvey of the Windy-Cassell Cave system. Maybe next
month sometime...
Mk
> Unfortunately, hidden things is where computer games excel and
I'd agree with this point and add that at tabletop ranges (<72-96")
every sensor should have AT LEAST bogey info. This keeps the cat and mouse
stuff in the System or Campaign rules
> Indy wrote:
> There are a handful of us up here: Nyrath, Noam (though he's more
I fly back to FRG on 21st, and from there to Kosovo on 1 June.
From: "John M. Atkinson" <john.m.atkinson@erols.com>
> I fly back to FRG on 21st, and from there to Kosovo on 1 June.
Keep safe (easier said than done, and I know you intend to).