> Please - don't let the few "whiners" create a "Politically correct"
Hello Karl, As long as people remember to be polite and recall the fact that
we *all* here can be *friends* despite our differences in opinion, it
shouldn't be a problem. As for all of this - once you see that there
are some less genteel individuals here, ignore them, ignore the thread they
are engaging in, and shake your head at what you preceive to be a lack in
manners. Best of all, realize that if you do engage in a
commentary that is not well liked by the others - that perhaps you are
ruffling *their* feathers enough to get them to think. They may swing towards
your point of view, or they may keep to their point of view. Hopefully, the
views they hold are the result of having to think about it and determine why
it is right or wrong in their eyes. I firmly believe that what is correct in
one area may not be correct in others. I don't mean to raise the gun issues
here, but do so to illustrate something...
I do not like having guns in my household. I do not have an issue with others
owning guns. If I ever feel I *need* a gun, I shall desire that such a gun be
available *legally*. If it isn't available legally, I likely WILL attain one
if I feel I need it that badly.
Likewise, I do not favor abortion. Oddly enough, I am *PRO* choice in this
matter. I strongly believe that it is an issue that should be weighed by the
woman and man involved in this situation. I also believe that if society
forces a man to be responsible for that life he had a part
in conceiving - whether he intended it or not, then said man should also
have the right to *block* an abortion.
Those two viewpoints raised above are not raised to FORCE anyone else to agree
with me. They merely outline to those of you here on this list,
that this is what makes me - ME. It outlines the simple fact that I am
not YOU. But if we can have a good natured discussion on this topic, we
are blessed with a more 3 dimensional enjoyment of each other - instead
of just "wargames". I don't know who you are as a person, or where you live,
or where you grew up - but I'd like to know you as a person rather than
the originator of electrons that splash on this screen. Hell, I'd dare say I'd
like to be able to enjoy you as the person you are rather than a nameless
individual who is one Six billionth of Earth's teeming masses
;)
> On Wednesday 19 March 2003 01:59 am, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
[snip]
> Likewise, I do not favor abortion.
[snip]
> But if we can have a good natured discussion on this topic, we
Perhaps if you're seeking good natured discussion on this topic, you might
seek a "3 dimensional enjoyment of each other" mailing list instead of a
wargames mailing list. Particularly given that these are topics which commonly
lead to not good natured discussions.
Those two viewpoints raised above are not raised to FORCE anyone else to agree
with me. They merely outline to those of you here on this list,
that this is what makes me - ME. It outlines the simple fact that I am
not YOU. But if we can have a good natured discussion on this topic, we
are blessed with a more 3 dimensional enjoyment of each other - instead
of just "wargames". I don't know who you are as a person, or where you live,
or where you grew up - but I'd like to know you as a person rather than
the originator of electrons that splash on this screen. Hell, I'd dare say I'd
like to be able to enjoy you as the person you are rather than a nameless
individual who is one Six billionth of Earth's teeming masses
;)
Hal, Well put! I sometimes think the ease of this electronic marvel make us
(all) at times intellectually lazy. I do find that laziness remarkable when
coming from war gamers, who as I've met over many a table were certainly not
one dimensional. And in the midst of many a game the topics were varied and at
times heated and at others amusing but always interesting.
Perhaps if you're seeking good natured discussion on this topic, you might
seek a "3 dimensional enjoyment of each other" mailing list instead of a
wargames mailing list. Particularly given that these are topics which commonly
lead to not good natured discussions.
The problem with that is, like life Wargaming (Full Thrust aside) doesn't take
place in a vacuum. People's minds and conversations do tend to go far afield
at times. This is not to defend those who "Flame" for the sheer joy of it but,
to be some what less sensitive about the occasional human foible.... It does
take only "more or less" a few grams of pressure to hit the delete key.
> Perhaps if you're seeking good natured discussion on this topic, you
Rather than argue with the point raised here, all I have to do is delete the
comment and let it go. Likewise, said individual above can now delete this
*entire* thread sight unseen and just plain ignore it. No need for the PC
crowd to "ban" the topics, nor a need to ban myself. He isn't hurt by the
things he deletes sight unseen, and I'm not hurt by this either.
Win/win. If the noise to signal ratio gets to be too much? Then
someone can quietly say "Hey, this isn't getting anywhere, will someone drop
it?".
After a while, the entire thing dies down due to a *LACK* of response.
Are we all so competitive that we have to have the last word in this and be
*RIGHT*? I hope not. That is what made me resign from TML (TRAVELLER MAILING
LIST). Truth is? I didn't engage in that kind of behavior on that list, nor
will I inundate this list with such behavior. I will however point out that
the process is simple:
9 people censure 1 person on his topic. It never comes up again. 8 people
censure 1 person on his topic, and the quiet one remains quiet, the 8 win.
Then the topics become less interesting, and it only takes 1 person to raise
an objection. The rest of the crowd, conditioned to "don't rock the boat" tell
everyone "this topic is verboten". What is left? Wargames only? Ok, let me
know when FULL THRUST the computer game comes out, or Stargrunt the computer
game comes out or what have you. Then I will stop bothering you people and
interact with just the computer... wait, that's not what I want <sob>.
Hal,
Time for a minority opinion.
First - ME (your words): American Mongrel - technically for the Federal
Government 'Hispanic' but also Cherokee and "Anglo" (Scots, Irish, French
[via Canada we believe,] Dutch and German-Jew) racially/ethnically;
radically Evangelical and Presbyterian; moderately Conservative politically (
used to say conservative until I came to work at my current place of
employment where I am considered a 'fringe Liberal";) and I do wish well for
the Iraqi people and ill on Saddam; I realize the Moros are not happy with
their perceived treatment (the word 'treaty' pops into my mind) but I support
the actions of Gloria Arroyo's government to suppress rebellion; I find
Maathahir (spelling?) Mohammed a person I can respect from a distance even if
I disagree with his actions; (With 2 Indian Daughters) I sympathize with
India's concerns if not their political process or their responses to Pakistan
over Kashmir; I like
Australians I have met on this list or professionally even if I/they/we
don't really feel the other group 'has a clue' sometimes; I fight a
persistent "Anti-English/pro-Irish/Scots" mind set engendered from my
upbringing; and - drum roll, please -
I DON'T want to know ALL war gamers better. At least beyond the game table.
That applies locally to the local cons I attend, the historical club I belong
to, this list (and all the other lists my three war game
personas (warbeads, Triphibious, and Dwarf_warrior) belong to.) I do
want to know some better and not just those I seem to 'agree' with. I won't
name names but there are some of both the "must meet' and "No, youare
mistaken, I name is... Pablo de Aniba..." categories on this list and a host
that fall into the nebulous 'maybe' set. I don't want to discuss Gun Control,
Abortion, current national superiority, the <spit> UN, Religion, or Politics
in depth on this list. You want to post [OT]
topics properly labeled, do so - that's why we started using the DS,
SG2, FT, OT, etc. labels because some vaccheads fail to enjoy Dirtside and
some treadheads don't like "Navy in Space" games. But please don't insist that
we all would be happy to get to know each other better. I don't like Anoraks
(spelling.)
For wxample, I don't care if Karl H. is a Green, Red, Blue, Purple, Social
Communist, or Luddite. I probably don't want to know what his
religious/poilitical/social views are. I just want to pick
brains/share/discuss games with Karl, OO , Indy, Beth/Derek, BADDAWG,
(when he returns, God willing) "the Real Romans" own bad boy, and quite a
few others I meet electronically. Some times distance and/or lack of
details makes a game friendship easier to bear.
Gracias,
> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 03:42:24 -0500 (EST) <hal@buffnet.net> writes:
<snip> What
> is
Well, * that * ___is___ why I joined this list. Why did you join?
Ok, let me know when FULL THRUST the computer
> game
I think you forgot "<grin>"
> Hal
Not depersonalization just avoiding unnecessary discussions.
Gracias,
> Time for a minority opinion.
A lot more electronic Off Topic "ink" has just been spilled than if
those-not-interested had just deleted Imre's post--which *was*
properly labeled "OT", by the way.
> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 02:59:28 -0500 (EST), <hal@buffnet.net> wrote:
> PS - don't let anyone's whines drive ya away. Delete delete delete
This assumes that everyone on the list has the same very cheap method of
downloading e-mail as is found in the US, and that people have e-mail
programs with filtering capability.
Many of the folks here are from the UK and Europe, where the fees for internet
access are structured differently. It costs them to download tons of off topic
messages.
Not everyone has a mail program that allows filtering. This is a wargaming
list, not a computer list, and not everyone is that computer savvy.
OT posts are tolerated here, particularly when it's sci-fi or science
related. We had a problem last year with political posts that drove some folks
away from the list. The whole issue of what should or should not be allowed
was discussed in depth back then. The conclusion was that we didn't want this
list to be moderated, but at the same point we didn't want to drive so many
people away that only those that tolerated off topic posts bothered to stick
around.
I understand the desire -- no, need -- for humans to discuss topics that
are of interest to them with friends in a social setting. Even while playing
games you are apt to go off topic and discuss current events, the weather, the
kids, etc. However, when the signal to noise ratio drops significantly, the
group
dies. For that reason, I am in favour of keeping OT discussions --
except
those with peripheral use in our games -- to a minimum.
Simple rule of thumb: if you have to label your post "[OT]" then don't post
it...