Decals

Are there any companies making sheets of water transfered decals that are ship
names? I've found ship ID numbers but no names.

> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:16:20 -0400 (EDT)

> Are there any companies making sheets of water transfered decals that
I'm investigating a line of paper that would allow us to make or download
decals and print them on an inkjet printer. A friend told me to check the
catalog of a company called MicroMark that sells the paper. I will update when
I know more.

On Tuesday, August 12, 1997 2:33 PM, Geo-Hex [SMTP:geohex@teleport.com]
wrote:
> I'm investigating a line of paper that would allow us to make or

There are some references to using this on the associated modelling newsgroups
FAQ. There are a couple of problems, the ink can bubble bleed and flake off
the film. The ink in the inkjet isn't very stable and degrades

unless you can fix it. These problems are documented in the FAQ's with some
rather fiddly and risky workarounds like putting talc on the film to soak up
the ink.

Rumour had it that a new generation of films were on the way, I'm not sure if
MicroMark is the company developing them.

The best concensus is a Laser printer or color copier on water slide decal
film gives much better results as the toner is dry and doesn't bleed. If you
want color go to a copy shop with a color laser or copier (unless work has
one :-) and a color copy of the artwork printed by your inkjet. However
all color will be transparent and you can't do white (no white toner).

Some of the new hot wax printers are also good for decal film as the wax is
stable and doesn't bleed and they can do white if you have the right cartridge
and a printer that supports it.

Otherwise there is a white decal film but you have to cut the design out and
which rules out very complicated designs as you would have an ugly white edge
depending on your skill with a X-acto knife.

You need the decal film which is expensive  - water slide decal film
suitable for laser printers is made by Walthers

Walthers Part # 934-706821, Decal paper 8 1/2x11 4/, in HO scale, Retail
$7.98

See also

http://www.fn.net/~downen/tips.html

On this subject

sincerely

1) The last fleets I had a chance to fight with recently had between 30 and 60
ships of various classes. I think the largest count was of smaller ships (CVs,
FFs, DDs, etc). Of these, I think the largest number was 12 CVs.

2) I'd love to see official logos (though I think the official logos are kind
of bland).

3) As an SG2 player, I'd like to see small decals that could pass for i) name
tapes (for use on uniform shirts, armour breastplates,
helmets) - transparent background and probably black lettering
    ii) small decals that look like unit flashes - in a variety of
schemes - some colourful, some the subdued (black and khaki or black and
sand) versions of the same image.

I was actually experimenting with shrinking a page sized imperial starburst
for traveller to do on my (UNSC) Traveller Imperial Marines. But the colour
printer I have claims 1200x1200 resolution... but it seems that shrinking a
jpeg or bmp doesn't always seem to produce a nice clear image. I'm not sure
what the issue here is (I'll leave it to the Comp Graphics mavens to
illuminate us) but I'd really like to see a way to take a larger image and
shrink it to a passable small image that could be used for ship markings,
shoulder flashes, tank markings, etc. The images don't have to be complex, but
things like i) horse head (knight from chess) ii) Early german maltese cross
(white or silver border around the early German cross) iii) Insignia like the
US SF insignia (with the lightning flashes) iv) Skull and Xbones v) Stylized
Crown
    vi) Stylized Dagger (many good German and English or US examples -
Sykes Fairburn comes to mind) vii) Small representations of older flags (white
ensign, any other naval flags) viii) Lightning Flashes, Thunder clouds ix)
Skull by itself (many special units make use of such insignia) x) Sun (various
stylized depictions)

These are some ideas. It'd be nice to produce a decal sheet for
    i) ships - the naval flags, tail/hull symbols, squadron markings,
etc
    ii) SG2 - shoulder flashes, name tapes, unit insignia
    iii) SG2 vehicles - similar to many of the sheets done by model
companies, but scaled right and with sci fi flavor
    iv) National sheets - numbers, symbols like the NSL cross, etc. for
each nationality in various sizes and numbers etc in their chosen font

Yes, this is an extensive variety I'm speaking of. But it strikes me that
other than the basic effort to set these up and draw them up (not negligible),
once they are on file, it should be a simple matter to produce them onto the
decal sheets with these zoomie printers everyone has. And the nice thing is
the old sheets just sit on a disk (BTW, hope you back up this stuff if you go
at it seriously...). Then when someone needs them again, double click and
tadah! there's the stored sheet.

Good luck. I look forward to seeing results. If they're half decent, I'm a
customer!:) And with the graphic talent on the list, there really wouldn't be
any excuse for something less than impressive, now would there? <grin>:)

Tom

> Thomas Barclay of the Clan Barclay wrote:

Impressive!  Perhaps I'll add a few -11's and -12's in place of the -M's
(which I think are superflous)

How about class designations, would my sheet pretty much cover them? More
importantly, were there any sets of letters you wouldn't use? Even with the
extra numbers, you'd have to buy two sheets to complete all the ships in your
fleet and I'd really like to avoid in the majority of cases.

> 3) As an SG2 player, I'd like to see small decals that could pass for

We were thinking of something like that, as well as shoulderbars and such.
They might be too small and fiddly though.

> ii) small decals that look like unit flashes - in a variety of

Well, as I mentioned elsewhere, I was hoping to get permission to do the
official logos, but I missed the boat.  :-(

Still, there is plenty of room for unit insignia, I'll just have to think of
some...

> The images don't have to be complex, but things like

Some of these are planned already, and I'll add the rest to the list.

The set that I hope will do the best is a set of noseart (everything from
flaming skulls to pinup girls) As far as I can tell, it's never been done
before, and is really a perfect use for the printer.

> These are some ideas. It'd be nice to produce a decal sheet for

I was thinking of a sheet just filled with names in small block print (white
lettering).  I'd divide it into quadrants for American/British, French,
German,
Chinese/Russian.  Would this be of use?

What about numbers? That could get trickier, but I could do the same kind of
designation (DD-1) but use larger random 2 and 3 digit numbers for
"actual" hull numbers.

> ii) SG2 - shoulder flashes, name tapes, unit insignia

Discussed above. I'll try a few for myself and see how well (or not) they
work.

> iii) SG2 vehicles - similar to many of the sheets done by model

Sort of planned, though I can't think of enough "stuff" to fill a sheet yet.

> iv) National sheets - numbers, symbols like the NSL cross, etc.
for
> each nationality in various sizes and numbers etc in their chosen font

This brings up another question. I was kind of musing about the idea of
releasing a bunch of different ID sheets all in different fonts. Does anybody
have good ideas for fonts to match any of the four major powers?

> Yes, this is an extensive variety I'm speaking of. But it strikes me

That's the plan!

> Good luck. I look forward to seeing results. If they're half decent,

I figure we're about a month away from actually having something to sell. Once
I've got anythign to show the list, I'll let people know. Until then, I'd love
to hear any more suggestions about what people would like to see.

Thanks

Tom

> Impressive! Perhaps I'll add a few -11's and -12's in place of

Personally I'd like DDs up to at least 8. I don't use many ships smaller than
DD's in a fleet action, while for me DDs are most numerous.

Just got Tom's update, new numbers. I wonder if 12 SCs and CTs are needed. My
suggestion is to reduce the number of SCs and CTs to maybe 8 and then increase
the number of DDs.

> How about class designations, would my sheet pretty much cover them?
More
> importantly, were there any sets of letters you wouldn't use?

But most people have more than 1 fleet and would need a sheet for each fleet
anyway, unless you want to have enough for 2 fleets on a sheet (2 of
everything), this will allow for replacements if one decal gets messed up and
larger fleets if you replace the number portion of the ID.

I assume that these numbers will be done in white so they stand out on black
bases. I currently am using a white paint marker which is OK but the sharpness
of decals would be better.

> > These are some ideas. It'd be nice to produce a decal sheet for

Something I have seen on some FSE ships are 1/144 WWI airplane decals.
Both the bullseye three color nationality marking and the flags for France,
Italy, and Spain seem to work.  Generic markings like Red 5-pointed
stars
and Blue 6-pointed stars would seem to have some use too.

> I was thinking of a sheet just filled with names in small block

I have used some of the names from Tangents Earthforce decals on other ships.
They would have to be small and sharp to be of use.

> I figure we're about a month away from actually having something

Having used Tangents B5 decals and the JMC Enterprised decals for Gamescience
Federation ships, I have a couple suggestions. 1) Make them durable. The
Tangents decals were easy to move around and looked good and have really
enhanced the look of my Hyperions. The Federation decals were early production
versions and were much less durable.
It was frustrating working with a 1/16" by 1/2" decal of 'NCC-923' that
broke into 3 pieces as I tried to position it, and then had to position the
pieces. Later ones are supposed to be better. 2) Include duplicates so you are
not screwed if you mess up. A good idead is to have at least 2 of every number
and 4 of every logo or symbol or ship name. If you put a symbol or name on
each side of a ship, and you mess up, if only 2 are included you are out of
luck. With 4 of these, you can get 1 ship done for sure and 2 ships if you are
careful.

Picures of some of my minis with decals are on my webpage.

> Dean Gundberg wrote:

Just out of curiosity, how numerous?

> Just got Tom's update, new numbers. I wonder if 12 SCs and CTs are

I probably have room to increase the number of DD's without reducing anything
else. I picked 12 because somebody mentioned having 12 of them and that
happens to perfectly fill one column.

> But most people have more than 1 fleet and would need a sheet for each

I don't think I can make enough for 2 fleets on a single sheet, but you're
right about most people using at least two fleets. Makes less to worry about
in some
cases...

> I assume that these numbers will be done in white so they stand out on

Yep, they'll be printed in white.

> > I was thinking of a sheet just filled with names in small block

The printer we're using is the same (possibly one model up) as the one
Tangents uses. I'm going to make a test run of various sized white lettering
to see what is still readable. Basically, I wanted to fill a sheet with names
similar to Tangent's B5 sheet, but organized roughly into nationality.

> 1) Make them durable. The Tangents decals were easy to move around
that
> broke into 3 pieces as I tried to position it, and then had to

That all depends on the decal film we use. The stuff we bought comes highly
recommended by the ALPS mailing list but I haven't tested it myself yet.
 If it
has any durability problems, we'll switch to another brand.

> 2) Include duplicates so you are not screwed if you mess up. A good

With the ID set, there will be enough extra numbers at the end to repir most
errors. The other sets we are planning will all have duplicates, including
some decale in multiple sizes.

I hadn't thought about duplication for the ship names though. You're
suggesting 4 of every name on the sheet then?

Tom

> Thomas Pope wrote:

> Some of these are planned already, and I'll add the rest to the list.

Good ideas! I always loved the insignias from Traveller and there are also a
bunch of good ones from the Battletech universe. I came across some Battletech
decals a while back, but at the size we're talking there's not a lot of
detail.

> The set that I hope will do the best is a set of noseart (everything

Much of this can be had from aircraft kits and Squadron as I recall had tons
of decals sheets from a variety of scales with aircraft markings from all
eras. I used some noseart from old WWII aircraft models just for this.

> This brings up another question. I was kind of musing about the idea

Simple block style would be fine, like what navies use today.

Mike

> Michael T Miserendino wrote:

True, but with a good enough printer (hopefully like the one we've got) you
can get pretty accurate renditions of the house insignia at about 5mm in
diameter.

We'll see what the final decals look like, but I'm pretty happy with the
samples we did...

> >The set that I hope will do the best is a set of noseart (everything

Really? I asked around quite a bit for sources of interesting noseart and came
up blank every time. I was told that you could occasionally find single image
here or there, but never in any quantity, and never at a small enough scale to
use on a 'mech or 1/300 plane...

Could you tell me more about what you found? I'd love to take a look at some
of
them...

Thanks

Tom

***
Does anybody have good ideas for fonts to match any of the four major powers?
***

How about the shadowed forms that Tony made up using paired black then white
dry transfers? Gives me the shakes thinking about doing, but looks good, and
very 'naval'.

http://www.tonyfrancis.free-online.co.uk/Brigade/sfs/gallery/SFS001_5.jp
g

Wouldn't work for those doing the all-to-common-in-my-group black or
dark
grey with dry-brushed lighter grey, but they don't deserve ornamentation
anyway. ;->=

Heck, my old style Dark Angels green ESU fleet was comparatively vibrant!

By the way, I like the color for ESU as it reminds me of east front armor. As
in Great Patriotic War?

The_Beast

> devans@uneb.edu wrote:

Hmmm, shouldn't be too difficult to handle, though we'd have to play around
with a two offset printing layers.

However, I was mostly thinking of text either just for the bases (all white on
a black base) or the names of ships. (so tiny that kind of shadow wouldn't
show up well)

Tom

> Dean Gundberg wrote:

Here are the latest numbers:

12x SC CT FF DD 8x FFH DDG DDH
 6x CL CE CH
4x BC BB DN BDN 2x SDN CVL CVE CVH CVA

4x AKH AK AKL APA
 2x FT AG SL

4x numbers 1 to 12 and X 2x numbers 13 to 16

...and space for 6 more entries.

Any thoughts on what else to add or remove? I still can remove some of the
smaller ships, but it's not worth worrying about unless there is specific need
for more larger classes.

Tom

> Just got Tom's update, new numbers. I wonder if 12 SCs and CTs are

Personally I'd reduce the number of scouts. I can't see anyone fielding 12
scouts in a given game (unless they're being used as wienie Banzai
Jammers ;-)  Use the extra space to oh, use Dean's suggestion of
increasing
numbers of DDs or something (BUT...I see you already did that -
nevermind!)

Mk

> Tom Pope wrote:

> you can

> We'll see what the final decals look like, but I'm pretty happy with

Tom, Can't wait to see them!

> >The set that I hope will do the best is a set of noseart (everything

Really? I asked around quite a bit for sources of interesting noseart and came
up blank every time. I was told that you could occasionally find single image
here or there, but never in any quantity, and never at a small enough scale to
use on a 'mech or 1/300 plane...

Could you tell me more about what you found? I'd love to take a look at

some of
them...

I try to take a look tonight and let you know. Their mailers used to list all
the aircraft decal sheets in fine print over a couple full size pages so
they had quite a bit.  I know a good portion was likely 1/144, 1/72, and

1/48 as they were the most popular.  Of course some larger scales still
look
good on the minis as they don't always reside on the nose. ;-)

Mike

The decals sound like a great idea, but I personally find just numbers and
interesting bits look best on the mini. I like keeping the mini generic as I
don't use a BC as a BC. Sometimes it might be a freighter in another game.

I have been using Micro-Armor decals for this and recently found some
interesting decals from another supplier that I will check tonight as well.
They provided raditation markings, checkered patterns, and other cool stuff
that I can use in a variety of scale.

Mike

> Tom Pope wrote:

> My suggestion is to reduce the number of SCs and CTs to maybe 8 and

Here are the latest numbers:

12x SC CT FF DD 8x FFH DDG DDH
 6x CL CE CH
4x BC BB DN BDN 2x SDN CVL CVE CVH CVA

4x AKH AK AKL APA
 2x FT AG SL

4x numbers 1 to 12 and X 2x numbers 13 to 16

...and space for 6 more entries.

Any thoughts on what else to add or remove? I still can remove some of the
smaller ships, but it's not worth worrying about unless there is specific need
for more larger classes.

Tom

> Michael T Miserendino wrote:

I'm guessing those would be from Beacon Publications. I've got a bunch and
have been generally happy with them.

Two observations about their packs:

1) They don't undercoat their decals with white. That means colors like yellow
are going to be semi transparent and won't show up well on darker backgrounds.

2) The actual selection is rather uninspired. Just a few cautions warnings and
radiation symbols in their sign package. They're nicely done, and in plenty of
different scales, but you're not going to see anything new.

We're trying to addrss both of those problems with our decal sets. Most of
them will be overprinted on a white background so they'll show up better on
dark colors. For our set of warning signs, we're going to try and include a
variety of interesting and SF looking additions to the standard set.

I'll have more in the way of actual examples shortly...

Tom

P.S. Do you know that your signature file has a ton of whitespace after it?

> Michael Miserendino

Okay, here's my thoughts:

For a first sheet of names/numbers, do the standard classes
CT - corvette
FF - frigate
DD - destroyer
CA - cruiser (heavy)
CL - cruiser (light)
CE - cruiser (escort)
BC - battlecruiser
BDN - battledread
DN - dread
SDN - superdread
BB - Battleship
CVL - light carrier
CV - fleet carrier
CVA - attack carrier
SC - Scout

That should cover most ship types.

Do abbreviation with a dash (as in "CVA-") and do the numbers (1-12) in
the same font and colour separate.

Do a sheet of these in one font for each navy.

These provide the "basemarking" most of us are forced to paint on...

If you want to do a sheet of names (quadranted) then use historical names
from FB/FT/MT and others from actual naval history. If I'm not mistaken
though, some navies use just numeric designations (NAC would have RNS Royal
Sovereign whereas ESU might have KV-144 (I don't know ESU designators,
but someone on the list will)and the germans might us KRS Graf Spee). Find out
what the typical format for each nation is, and try to do names of general
use. I think you'll want to really to a separate page for each nationality to
give a good variety of names.

This brings up an interesting topic: Indy has fleet lists, but not a compiled
list of ship names for the fleet. Is anyone working on such a list? Should
someone (else... I'm too busy getting ready for lancaster) compile one?

Now, for "onship" decals, national logos are good. So too is the hull art idea
(keep in mind the different ship shapes). And the aforementioned ship names,
if you can get them in a small enough font. One of the downsides is few GZG
ships give you an area to put a long thin decal on without too much hull
detail to cause problems.... Jon likes to contour his ships...

I would suggest CH for Heavy Cruiser because I have seen CA also be used for
Fleet Auxiliary Cruisers. Same thing for Heavy (Attack) Carriers CVH.
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/ft/
-----

> -----Original Message-----
[snip]

> Thomas Barclay

> This brings up an interesting topic: Indy has fleet lists, but not a
compile
> one?

Well..........I've been doing my own list of ship name collecting and
assigning....some of them appear in the fleet rosters (notably the big
ships like SDNs and carriers). Plus I have listed for many of my non-
FleetBook ships names in the rosters. I've been hesitant to put out my list of
ship names for the fleetbook ships 'cause everyone has their own opinion for
naming schemes and I didn't want to feel like I was imposing
on someone else's list/opinions for ship names.

> Now, for "onship" decals, national logos are good. So too is the hull

There're always the bases...  :)   (I know, doesn't look the same,
but...)

Mk

> "Thomas.Barclay" wrote:

Most of which I've got, with the exception noted

> "Bell, Brian K" wrote:

Since I've got six extra slots left in the sheet, perhaps I'll just add six
CA's to the mix...

> That should cover most ship types.
in the
> same font and colour separate.

Actually I figured that having the numbers attached "CVA-1" rather than
"CVA-"
and "1" would be easier in most circumstances (with so called "standard"
fleets) and no more difficult for people who needed different numbers.

Tht's what I woudl prefer in a decal set, but you're the second person to ask
for the letters seperate from the numbers. What's the general list concensus
on the issue?

> Do a sheet of these in one font for each navy.

Other than some specialty fonts for Star Trek, I haven't found anything really
interesting and different for the four GZG nations. Currently, they're in
Ariel Bold.

> These provide the "basemarking" most of us are forced to paint on...

That's the plan!

> If you want to do a sheet of names (quadranted) then use historical

Perhaps a seperate page would be better, especially given the suggestoin that
I
provide 2-4 copies of each name for redundancy.

How about a sheet full of names in the following format (4 copies of each)

CVA-103 Ark Royal

...or maybe the following would be more appropriate:

RNS-1045 Ark Royal

Since that leaves out the difficulty of finding specific codes for the ship
class...

> Now, for "onship" decals, national logos are good. So too is the hull

Actually, the noseart was designed more for battlemechs and 1/300
planes. There's no reason it couldn't be on the side of a starship though...

> And the aforementioned ship names, if you can get them in a small

I'm planning on something very similar to what Tangents offers for their B5
decal set, but with more to choose from...

> One of the downsides is few GZG ships give you an area to put a long

Very true. I'll see how small I can get readable text to print. Perhaps I can
find something that will fit and still be legible.

Tom

Here are the latest numbers:

12x SC CT FF DD 8x FFH DDG DDH

** Okay, what's the H? DDG says to me guided missile destroyer. I'd prefer the
more generic DD. I'm not sure what the H qualifier adds? Anyone? Is it a good
idea for GZGverse ships? Is H for heavy frigate? Heavy (super) destroyer? If
so, can we have normal FFs?

<Someone else said they can't see fielding 12 scouts... maybe we should give
them the initial BJ for "things which suck salvo missiles...">

 6x CL CE CH

** If you're going to use CH, which I can live with, instead of adding 6xCA,
you could add 6xCM or PC (patrol cruiser or medium cruiser).

4x BC BB DN BDN 2x SDN CVL CVE CVH CVA

** These are good. (Of course, CVS (Strike Carrier) works too).

We're only talking about early sheets too - later ones can add in all
the "less useful" classes.

Also, as far as ship names, a page with 2 copies of each name as...

Royal Sovereign RNS-  BC-
Royal Sovereign RNS-  BC-

... and the numbers would let each of us assign (since no one has yet come up
with a full fleet listing though I'd love to see Indy's to start with
-
*hint* *hint*) our own numerics to the ships.

The reason for splitting numerics and letter codes is it lets some of us
(who want to) label our ships as BC-123 Royal Sovereign and others label
it
as RNS-123 Royal Sovereign. It allows people to tailor to taste. (Though
like most things, some on the list will want it the simplest way, others will
want the flexibility...)

My comment to Dean is if you think you are hamfisted, buy two decal sheets.:)
For those of us who are careful, I'd rather have more decals per sheet. I'll
buy a second sheet if I'm worried. Otherwise, I have waste decals to the tune
of half the sheet....

> "Thomas.Barclay" wrote:
Is it a
> good idea for GZGverse ships? Is H for heavy frigate? Heavy (super)

There are 12 normal FF's. I added FFH because the NAC fields a heavy Frigate
as well as a "regular" Frigate.

> <Someone else said they can't see fielding 12 scouts... maybe we

:-)

> > 6x CL CE CH

Sure, either would work...

> > 4x BC BB DN BDN

That or the cruiser? Or four cruisers and 2 carriers?

> We're only talking about early sheets too - later ones can add in all

Very true...

> Also, as far as ship names, a page with 2 copies of each name as...

Hmmm, not a bad idea. Still, especially when you get down to the scale of the
name text (no more than 1mm high) it might get really annoying to cut and
paste numbers like that.

I'll postpone judgement about that one until after I've gotten the final draft
of the ID code sheet finished.

> The reason for splitting numerics and letter codes is it lets some of
(Though
> like most things, some on the list will want it the simplest way,

Agreed. I certainly don't mind doing it that way, but if there is a way to
keep it simple in the majority of cases while still relatively flexable, I'll
stick with that.

> My comment to Dean is if you think you are hamfisted, buy two decal

This is what I'm hoping to avoid. The optimal solutoin is to have a single
sheet that will work with 90% of the fleets people have. I think I've got that
covered, judging from the responses so far...

Tom

> "Thomas.Barclay" wrote:
Is it a
> good idea for GZGverse ships? Is H for heavy frigate? Heavy (super)

An alternative labeling for the heavy destroyers would be destroyer escorts or
DDE. They make a sacrifice in the engine room, but make up for it in armor and
additional offensive systems.

What is the timing for the general release and availability of the decals?

> My comment to Dean is if you think you are hamfisted, buy two

Ok Ok;) 4 names per sheet is a bit much, 2 will be fine. You have to remember
that on these decal sheets, the whole sheet is decal film*, so you cut out
your decal as close as you can to the actual image. I've had to wet an then
position decals as small as 2mm by 5mm without any good place to hold on to.
Then the decal breaks or it rolls up or it folds over, etc.
 It
is just plain difficult dealing with decals this small, and if they are that
small, they don't take up much space so you can have duplicates;)

*Most comercial decal sheets the decal film for each image is separate and
slightly larger than the image

> "Davis, Jonathan E (CRD)" wrote:

I'm guessing everything will be ready in a month or less. We've got all the
supplies we need, but there is a bunch of administrative stuff to deal with
(packaging, pricing, shipping options, etc.)

As for the decals themselves...

The ID codes could be printed with a few days, once I settle on the final
sheet. Everything that involves artwork needs to be drawn (or redrawn) by our
resident artist, so that will take a bit longer.

After that, I'll start using them myself to test the quality. We also need to
play around a bit with shipping options so we can guarantee that they will
arrive in good shape. Lots to do...

I'll keep everybody updates as things progress though, and try to get this
moving as quickly as possible.

Tom

You can bring them to Lancaster at the end of February. Our ravenous hordes of
gamers will quickly snap them up from you.

Just another feeding shark.... :-)

Jon

[quoted original message omitted]

> "Davis, Jonathan E (CRD)" wrote:

Absolutely! I was planning on attending, and the owenr of Wargames Express
(the parent company of all this nonsense) should be travelling with me.

Tom

> Tom Pope wrote:

> and have

Sounds right.

> 1) They don't undercoat their decals with white. That means colors

Have to try and see.

> 2) The actual selection is rather uninspired. Just a few cautions

> plenty

Well it fit the bill as I wanted a lot of some particular styles. I do wish
however that they did have more sheets with different styles, but a lot of the
same per sheet so I don't need to buy a lot of sheets to get one style I like.

> We're trying to addrss both of those problems with our decal sets.
Most >f them
> ill be overprinted on a white background so they'll show up better on

> variety

Let me know if you need some field testing. ;-)

Mike

The more I see the decal discussion progress regarding ship types, the more
I would like to see this in 1/4" size to use on the ship bases.  This
allows those of us who make the ship bases detachable to allow the ships to
represent different ship types without touching the mini directly. I
currently use 1/4" lettering from the office supply store, but you need
to stick each letter individually which is a pain.

I would pay for a nice 1/4" decal sheet that had clear lettering with
the ship types already created. Have a choice of colors like white, black, and
red.

The only addition would be a number and maybe a ship type modifier that is not
normally with the type (extra letters, etc.). Of course you just use the
number decal on the ship mini for this.

Mike

> Thomas Barclay wrote:
Okay, here's my thoughts:

For a first sheet of names/numbers, do the standard classes
CT - corvette
FF - frigate
DD - destroyer
CA - cruiser (heavy)
CL - cruiser (light)
CE - cruiser (escort)
BC - battlecruiser
BDN - battledread
DN - dread
SDN - superdread
BB - Battleship
CVL - light carrier
CV - fleet carrier
CVA - attack carrier
SC - Scout

That should cover most ship types.

Do abbreviation with a dash (as in "CVA-") and do the numbers (1-12) in
the same font and colour separate.

Do a sheet of these in one font for each navy.

These provide the "basemarking" most of us are forced to paint on...

If you want to do a sheet of names (quadranted) then use historical names
from FB/FT/MT and others from actual naval history. If I'm not mistaken
though, some navies use just numeric designations (NAC would have RNS Royal
Sovereign whereas ESU might have KV-144 (I don't know ESU designators,
but someone on the list will)and the germans might us KRS Graf Spee). Find out
what the typical format for each nation is, and try to do names of general
use. I think you'll want to really to a separate page for each nationality to
give a good variety of names.

This brings up an interesting topic: Indy has fleet lists, but not a compiled
list of ship names for the fleet. Is anyone working on such a list? Should
someone (else... I'm too busy getting ready for lancaster) compile one?

Now, for "onship" decals, national logos are good. So too is the hull art idea
(keep in mind the different ship shapes). And the aforementioned ship names,
if you can get them in a small enough font. One of the downsides is few GZG
ships give you an area to put a long thin decal on without too much hull
detail to cause problems.... Jon likes to contour his ships...

It would be nice to just have a large selection to choose from and let the
user decide if they like CH or CA.  Just give me choices! :-)

Mike

Michael Miserendino Senior Software Engineer Lincoln Re mtmiserendino@lnc.com

> owner-gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU at internet 01/11/00 02:19PM >>>

I would suggest CH for Heavy Cruiser because I have seen CA also be used for
Fleet Auxiliary Cruisers. Same thing for Heavy (Attack) Carriers CVH.
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/ft/
-----

> -----Original Message-----
[snip]

> Thomas Barclay

> I would suggest CH for Heavy Cruiser because I have seen CA
Carriers CVH.

ch = heli-carrier?
CA = cruiser (Armored)

> Bell, Brian K wrote:

No offence ment to Brian, but this can only cause confusion and violate
traditional IDs.

(CA was originally - Armored Cruiser)

Bye for now,

> Thomas.Barclay wrote:
...Snip...JTL
> The reason for splitting numerics and letter codes is it lets some of
(Though
> like most things, some on the list will want it the simplest way,
...Snip...JTL

Comment: In WWII, the RN used a number (1 or 2 digit) for capitols and
cruisers. All smaller and support ships carried a letter (Flag Superior),
followed by a two digit number for ID.

Bye for now,

> 1) They don't undercoat their decals with white. That means colors

Actually, they do undercoat for some of their sets (lettering to whit), but
not all.

> >The set that I hope will do the best is a set of noseart (everything

I don't know if anyone spoke to this bit later (haven't got through all the
"decals" messages yet).

I have done a LOT of model aircraft model kits, particularly in 1/144
scale
(and by the way, if anyone is into 1/144 scale aircraft models I have
LOTS of kits I'd be happy to sell off...), and there are, to the best of my
knowledge, NO decal sheets with more than a couple (maybe up to 5 or 6 max)
nose art decals. If you're planning a BUNCH of them on one sheet, that
would be great.   And I've never seen them small enough for 1/300 scale
(not really many for 1/144 scale either).

> Adrian Johnson wrote:

That's the plan! Everything from the classic pinup girl to flaming skulls to
alien critters in pinup girl poses (hey, slimeblobs from Xorquan VII have
needs
too!)

> And I've never seen them small enough for 1/300 scale (not really many

That's what I had come to believe.

Also, since most decal sheets are printed in a small number of colors, I'm
hoping that our final product will be of high enough quality to raise the
scale and sell to the modeling crowd as well...

Tom

> Sean Bayan Schoonmaker wrote:

Really? The yellow and red microarmor numbers I got weren't undercoated.
Perhaps they changed after I pestered them about it...

...or maybe just the bigger letter sets. He did say something abtou having
some registration problems with the smaller decals.

Tom

> John Leary wrote:

Well, the Fleet Book does list a Heavy Cruiser as CH

Tom

> On Tue, 11 Jan 2000, John Leary wrote:

> Bell, Brian K wrote:

the H suffix often means 'helicopter' in the modern world; 'CVH' for
helicopter carrier, for instance. just to keep you on your toes, there are
the RN's carriers, which are 'CAH' - they are technically 'through-deck
cruisers', and it seems harriers count as helos; i suspect this may be part of
a cunning misinformation programme, probably aimed at parliament.

just to ruin everyone's day, i'l add that (afaik) corvettes are usually
designated 'FFL', as if they were light frigates.

on cruisers; a destroyer with a missile is a DDG; a cruiser with a missile is
a CG. a plain destroyer is a DD, which suggest to me that a cruiser is
simply a C. this neatly explains CA/CL vs FFA/FFL, but it does leave you
with the rather odd-looking C for plain cruiser (not that i've ever seen
a
plain cruiser except in made-up designs). and remember, a CAG isn't a
heavy missile cruiser, it's a carrier air group. oh, the joy of nomenclature!

tom

Hi Just noticed that the GZG online store index has an entry for FT decals
under Full Thrust Starships that I had not seen before. While it is empty at
the moment, can we expect decals for the various FT Fleets anytime soon? Or
have I been asleep again? Nothing recent in the list index. Regards ID

> Hi

The answer is yes, the decals (made by Decals Express) are now in
stock - it looks like Paul's created the new page in the index but
not yet had the chance to actually upload the list of items.

Keep an eye on the site over the next day or two, they should be up for
ordering soon! We have decal sheets for the NAC, NSL, ESU, FSE, UNSC, Islamic
Fed, Japanese, K'V, Savasku and Phalons, with more new ones to follow.

Best,

> On 12 Jun 2005, at 11:10, Ground Zero Games wrote:
I admit this is a bit of a technical question but... I've found with a lot of
decals that when you put varnish over them, they tend to react and 'bubble up'
and it ends up looking rather nasty, just before it peels off and looks even
worse. Has anyone tested the decals to see if they're OK to be varnished over?

                                             Jon

actually thats my fault they are their I just had dyslixec figners but I have
spelt all the links correctly now, the decals are listed under SG and FT.

________________________________

        From: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[mailto:owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU] On Behalf Of Ground Zero
Games
	Sent: 12 June 2005 11:16
        To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
	Subject: Re: Decals

                Hi

Just noticed that the GZG online store index has an entry for FT decals under
Full Thrust Starships that I had not seen before. While it is empty at the
moment, can we expect decals for the various FT Fleets anytime soon? Or have I
been asleep again? Nothing recent in the list index.

                Regards

                ID

The answer is yes, the decals (made by Decals Express) are now
in stock - it looks like Paul's created the new page in the index but
not yet had the chance to actually upload the list of items.

Keep an eye on the site over the next day or two, they should be up for
ordering soon! We have decal sheets for the NAC, NSL, ESU, FSE, UNSC, Islamic
Fed, Japanese, K'V, Savasku and Phalons, with more new ones to follow.

Best,

Jon (GZG)

> Jonathan White wrote:

I don't know about dry transfers, but in most model railroad articles on
decals I read that they use some decal fixating solution before applying
varnish and other stuff.

> Jonathan White wrote:

> I admit this is a bit of a technical question but... I've found with
Decal fixing solutions as Frits has mentioned already are very nice with a
good decal, especially on smaller models where the decal has to be applied
over some small details.

On smoother areas where the decal can lay flat, try covering the spot you're
planning on putting the decal on with a clear gloss first. This really reduces
the "bubble" effect you get and can eliminate the "haze" that you can get from
the decal film.

Gloss-coat under the decal, over the decal (once dry) and whatever
finish you like over the entire model. It all blends in nicely.

--Tim

Can't comment about the rest of the discussion, but I believe Frits
mentioned 'dry transfer', while I'm fairly certain these are water-slide
decals. Has there been experience with using regular decal products,
whether 'set' or 'cover', on the ALPS-made decals?

Otherwise, I'd be curious what you are using to 'varnish' figs; regular
clear(matte, satin, or gloss) acrylic, or something else?

The_Beast (who STILL can't paint without the subject looking covered in
fur, and contracts it all out)

> I admit this is a bit of a technical question but... I've

I've put both brush-on clear varnish (Ral Partha clear) and spray on
flat varnish (Testor's Dullcote) on these decals without any problems.

As with all decals, it helps to put down a gloss varnish before the decal they
stick better to smooth surfaces, and it also helps to use a decal setting
solution like Solvaset.

That said, I've used these both with and without those steps with good
success. They are on the thin side compared to most offset printed decals,
which is good and bad. They conform to surface details better, but do take a
little more care in application to avoid tearing.

Tom

Since you asked...

The flag decals that we're doing for GZG are done on an ALPS using either
Tango Papa or (forgot the other company name, and I'm not in the office!)
decal paper.  They are water slide/transfers.

I have used had good results using Badger Decal Set and MicroSol Decal Setting
solution for these (not the flags, but this decal paper).

I have dull coated some of my models using Testors Dullcote, but have not used
any "varnish" products. The Dullcote does no damage to the decals,

and my guess would be that the Glosscote product would not either.

I hope that this helps,

John Decals Express

--On Monday, June 13, 2005 7:41 AM -0500 Doug Evans
<devans@nebraska.edu> wrote:

> Can't comment about the rest of the discussion, but I believe Frits
regular
> clear(matte, satin, or gloss) acrylic, or something else?

I think some pictures would actually make me buy these on spec - as it
is i have no idea how good they are, how many on each sheet or what
size until someone on the list reviews them - any more information on
them would be gratefully received.

> Tim Jones wrote:

I don't have any of my sheets with me, so I can't tell you how many are on a
sheet, etc, but I have used the Decals Express decals on a variety of minis
and have been fairly satisfied with them.

I could try digging up one of my sheets tonite and scan it in tomorrow for you
to see if you'd like.

Mk

I'll try to get some pics onto the decals express site by the weekend.

John