I have a question for all you Full Thrusters.
The group that I play FT with loves to custom build our own ships. We put
together a spreadsheet that does all the calculations. The house rule is that
any ship made with our spreadsheet is fair (that way if the spread sheet
calculates something wrong...at least it's consistantly wrong and no one
benefits more than anyone else.) We do have certain other house
rules......like no mixing......humans can mix and match all they want
(essentially all the weapons systems out of the first and second books).
Aliens can only use thier alien systems.
This has caused a problem......the Sa'Vasku!!!! If you play the prebuilt
(canned) Sa'Vasku ships, they aren't soo bad. The problem is when you build
your own. They can quickly become unbeatable. Example: If each side takes
1000pts, my buddy usually takes Sa'Vasku....makes one big ship......and game
over!!! He just builds them with a huge amount of power...no shields. Then has
just has to sit accross the table and blow us away at ranges we can't even
dream of. If we make a run to get in close....guess what....he changes range
and blows us apart even faster!!!
Anyone else run into this problem? Can anyone give me some advice?
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:46:39 -0800 (PST) Shawn M Mininger
> <smininger@yahoo.com> writes:
Maybe you should consider "why" this guy insists on playing in such a way as
to totally unbalance the game?? Munchkin? Victory counter? Ego freak? Sorry if
this seems blunt but if this *always* happens this person is, at best, fixated
on winning by playing the spreadsheet over playing the game. Why not limit the
games to humans for a while and see this person's response?
Maybe you could provide binding rules such as?
No more then 40% (no minimum) of you points will be Capital Ships, no more
then 50% and no Less then 25% Cruisers, and no more then 50% or less then 10%
of points expended must be escorts??? This requires at least Three ships...
One of each. And if you use morale rules each ship lost is 33% of the
fleet.... including that escort, no matter how light it
is...
But I still think your problem is found in the answer to my first question.
As a 'recovered munchkin' I feel I can speak openly about that problem.
In message <20010328.102822.9559.6.triphibious@juno.com>
> Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:46:39 -0800 (PST) Shawn M Mininger
[snip]
> >
In addition, some time ago (shortly after FB2 came out) there was a lot of
discussion on the list about the Sa'Vas'Ku ability to fire at longer ranges
than anyone else (and then switch all power to drives and move of if anyone
got close) for instance, a Var'Arr'Sha (light cruiser) can fire a stinger shot
with a range of up to 48 mu, and still have 4 power
spare - the only ship in FB1 with this kind of range is the Komarov SDN!
IIRC, the general opinion was that the range bands for Stinger Nodes be
reduced to 8 or 9 mu per band (ie. 0-8, 8-16, 16-24 or 0-9, 9-18,
18-27, etc.)
Even so, with a single huge ship and a lot of power, you've still got a
problem, so I suggest you follow Glenn's suggestion.
> In addition, some time ago (shortly after FB2 came out) there
I really haven't looked into these, so I may be way off base here, but can you
limit the shift differential in the movement for Sa'Vas'Ku? Say max
acceleration of +1 MU? So, the ship can only increase the speed by +1
thrust factor per turn? This would require the ship to build up some speed
from a dead stop, and allow others a window of opportunity to close with it.
Just a thought. I'll return to under my lurker rock now......
> aren't soo bad. The problem is when you build your
One nice house rule I've seen on the web is to limit the value of any one ship
to no more than half the total points. So, in a 1000 point game, the biggest
ship is 500 points. Its artificial, but works. I've seen others on the list
use methods along the same lines.
In Battlefleet Gothic, players are limited in selection of ships larger than
cruisers, unless they first take a set number of cruisers, so for example,
they have to take 4 cruisers before they can take a battleship.
Small house rules like that, though they may seem artificial, actually enforce
the fact that no nation is only going to build their biggest ships. Fleets
will always have a variety of ship classes, if for no other reason than
economics (unless you're playing Master of Orion 2). An additional point, is
that historically, admiralties have been hesitant to commit all of their ships
of the line at once, since losing them represents a considerable (and
expensive) loss that could tip the scales. I don't imagine that in the future,
this would be much different.
George
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, stranger wrote:
> > aren't soo bad. The problem is when you build your
I remember from somewhere (the list) a suggestion that you ratio the points
for each race. Ie. the humans get 2000 points, the kravak 1500, the sav get
1200. Change the ratio to suit your tastes.
Or play bid that battle with your friend. Can he still destroy the same fleet
with 200 points less? 500 less?
> > On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:46:39 -0800 (PST) Shawn M Mininger
In message <00a701c0b787$500d70e0$1a468bca@avis>
> "Alan and Carmel Brain" <aebrain@dynamite.com.au> wrote:
> > > On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:46:39 -0800 (PST) Shawn M Mininger
That's a point, does he invest in things like spicules, pod launchers, the
aforementioned drone wombs etc.?
Also, does he subscribe to this mailing list?
There's always the number one way to balance a scenario. Let your munchkin
design both sides, then you pick the one you want.
This is, iirc, derived from one of Solomon's decisions.
And people say history isn't relevant.
Another thought would be playing a scenario twice, once on each side. That'll
let him see how much fun you've been having.
> --- Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
> Maybe you should consider "why" this guy insists on playing in such a
No, he doesn't subscribe to this mailing list, heh heh heh I wish, then he'd
see gaming in a different light....9one meant to have fun, not just win.
Basically, he's a power gamer.......it tickles him to no end to abuse other
players repeatedly. I finally told him that I would no longer play Full Thrust
with him if he played Sa'Vasku. I hated saying that, but it was getting
rediculous.
Folks, let me tell you how to design an unstoppable
Sa'Vasku.......it's real simple.........4 stingers, 4
fire controls, medium hull, and AS MUCH POWER AS POSSIBLE!!!
Here's what happens, I should know, I got reamed about 20 times this way.
We each take a 3000pt fleet. I get a decent mix of ships (I actually like
faster ships so I tend to favor carrier groups....lots of speedy fighters and
escorts!!), meanwhile, my buddy builds his one 3000pt Sa'Vasku ship using the
aforementioned build concept.
Turn 1:
Plot Movement.....I send forces forward, aft, starboard, it doesn't matter. My
buddy sits at the edge of the board, maybe moving 1 inch......maybe not.
We roll initiative........let's say that I win.....I am still to far to fire.
My friends turn....he juices up his stingers to bigtime range and takes out
four of my escorts immediately.
Turn 2:
Plot Movement.....I send forces forward, aft, starboard, it doesn't matter. My
buddy sits at the edge of the board, maybe moving 1 inch......maybe not.
We roll initiative........let's say that I win.....I am still to far to fire.
My friends turn....he juices up his stingers to bigtime range and takes out
four of my escorts immediately.....again.
Turn 3:
Plot Movement.....I send forces forward, aft, starboard, it doesn't matter. My
buddy sits at the edge of the board, maybe moving 1 inch......maybe not.
We roll initiative........let's say that I win.....I might be in range of a
few of my weapons......but wait, most of my fleet is already gone before I
ever got close enough to fire!!! So, I do what I can and try to unleash my
capital ships (as all my smaller ships are gone by now) He has no problem
taking a few hits from me at long range. My friends turn....he juices up his
stingers and combines fire and takes out my battleship. He does this in one
turn because now that range is shorter (for him), he can literally pump a load
of energy into vaporizing me with one devestating hit.
Next round...there goes my carrier.......etc, etc, etc.
Anyone else run into this sort of problem before?
The Sa'Vasku are cool, but they are too easy to make unbeatable.......just
make sure you design your ships with massive amounts of power......nothing can
get close...you can hit at nearly any range.....swarming with needle ships
won't work as you can't get them close enough before they are vaporized. Even
fighters won't do as he always takes plenty of fighter protection.
Heh heh heh so finally, I told him, NO MORE. We play
with the human technologies (which don't suffer as badly from 'monolith
syndrone') or we play with ships straight outta the book.
Heh heh well, sorry folks, thanks for letting me vent off some steam.....I
went a good 6 months getting smoked by the Sa'Vasku before I put my foot
down....Heh heh heh I tried every tactic I could think of. It almost ruined
the game for me.
--- Charles Taylor <charles.taylor@cableol.co.uk>
wrote:
> In message <00a701c0b787$500d70e0$1a468bca@avis>
***
Here's what happens, I should know, I got reamed about 20 times this way.
***
I just thought; what're your initial velocities? Floating or fixed battle
area?
I play slow at start, but most think this is artificial. Initial velocities
that get you into gun range sooner would mitigate your initial
wipe-out.
> Shawn M Mininger wrote:
> Folks, let me tell you how to design an unstoppable
If he uses this ship alone, here's what will (OK, *ought to*) happen::
You bring a carrier or two to the battle.
You launch fighters, then your ships leave before getting into his range.
The ship described above has no spicules, no drone wombs, no pod
launchers. Not even screen nodes. In other words, it is mother-naked to
fighter attacks.
He now has two choices: either he leaves too, or his huge ship dies.
Fun, eh?
Regards,
we normally say that your ships can enter at up to double your thrust.
> --- devans@uneb.edu wrote:
G'day Shawn,
Sorry to hear of your plight, facing a 3000pt vessel is scary regardless of
what race it is!
My only suggestions would have been:
1) Go in at HIGH speed (40-70+), but this is going to work for you given
your speed limitations. 2) Try missile scouts...you should be able to get
about 80 odd of them for 3000 pts 3) Fighters, fighters and more fighters.
Unfortunately none of that sounds like it'd be that much fun in the long
run. I do like Glen's idea about breaking BIG ships down into sections. We've
tried that with space stations and had a lot of fun.
Cheers
Beth
I would suggest the use of a 2x4, applied judiciously to the back of his head.
And then, once you have his attention.
No, perhaps that's a bit harsh. How about this:
Missiles. Lots and lots of MT style missiles. Especially if he has no PDS. The
standard ones are nice, and the Needle ones can be VERY effective if he only
purchases a minimal amount of systems. And then there's the EMP missiles....
Hey, what effect *do* EMP missiles have against Sa'Vasku? If any?
If your cheesemeister friend wants to stick with his chosen ploy and
you can't get him to see the error of his ways--and if you're
patient--maybe you can get him to reduce his points total by, say, 200
points per game. So you both start at 3000 and he creams you--next
time you have 3000 and he gets 2800. He still wipes you up, so for game 3 he
gets 2600. When he gets to, say, 1600, you win, so the next
game he gets +100 for 1700. Keep iterating by smaller amounts and you
> At 08:21 PM 3/29/01 -0500, John Crimmins wrote:
Offhand, I'd say the large electrical burst acts something like a taser does
to a human, causing various systems to shut down.
In other words, the same effect, but different PSB. ^_^
> --- Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> wrote:
Not to try to go 'one up' on your comments Beth but:
I would enter the board and start the Jump cycle, suffer the one turn of fire,
and then arrive at
selected locations within weapons range. Just
take the chance for the misjump, it is certainly better than four turns of
fire from the 'monster'. Alternately; Require that the senario have an
objective and a time limit.
Bye for now,
So what about an abuse for an abuse? Take 80 little guys, get some of them
close to the big guy and jump. Some will fail...
> Folks, let me tell you how to design an unstoppable
Hmmm, I just whipped up a 3000 pt SV ship just to see what it looked like:
Che'D'ar class Sa'Vasku Cheeseship Mass 994 Cost 2998 BioMass 300 Carapace 75
Power Generators 409 FTL 4 Stinger Nodes 4 Cortex Nodes
I compare this to the Super Star Destroyer I created for my Sci-Fi
Crossover scenario (Mass 1400, Cost 4538) which I separated into 7 sections of
200 mass each. In the firing phase of the game, I allowed the SSD player to
fire only 1 section of the ship at a time. FT was never designed to support
ships of this size so as was suggested by others, anything over 300 mass
should be treated as a 'supership' and subdivided into sections and then only
let one section fire at a time.
There are the other tactics described by others, load up on bathtub launchers
of MT missiles (he barely moves at all so should be an easy target), fighter
swarms (you could field 10 of those Mass 80 carriers for 50 fighter groups),
etc. Basically don't play his game, turn around and make him follow you on a
floating board (dropping mines the whole time). My favorite is the option of
insulting his tactical ability (not the ship design) and dare him to take your
fleet against you playing his ship and see if he can do better than you have.
Heh heh heh this is one idea that i've thought of but never done, heh heh heh
KAMAKAZI!!!!
> --- Roger Books <books@mail.state.fl.us> wrote:
> Why not fight fire with fire and take a mirror ship against him? That
G'day John,
> I would enter the board and start the Jump cycle,
Yep that's definitely another option. Must admit I didn't think of that
because we don't allow mid game jumps except in scenario specific cases. In
the few cases we've had some one jump in at the start of the game or some time
in they've also been "dazed" for a turn or two, so that wouldn't help either.
But that's just the way we play;)
Cheers
D*** Dean, that's vicious <grin> I like it.
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious (American Mongrel)
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines! (Die, Ralnai, Die!)
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar Conflicts
and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:19:42 -0600 "Dean Gundberg"
> <Dean.Gundberg@noridian.com> writes:
G'day Mike,
> I remember from somewhere (the list)
If we're talking about the same thing then I think you'll find that was an ad
hoc way of balancing the old KV vs Humans. With FB2 you shouldn't need to do
that.
Cheers
Beth