As there's been a fair bit of duscussion on this list recently on the subject
of age and complexity, I thought I'd add my tuppence/two cents (delete
according to country of origin) worth.
I've been playing wargames with the same group of people since the age of 14,
(though I did have a few years off to get a life). We're all now 30
somethings, (I'm the youngest at 31), though only one of us has kids. I think
the main reason 'older' gamers like simple rules is mostly to do with time and
lifestyle constraints. We meet one evening a week, and by the time everyone
gets home from work, eats, feeds the cat etc., there are only about 3 hours in
which to play. Also, the last thing anyone needs after a long stressful day at
work is an evening spent leafing through a rulebook that makes War & Peace
look like a postcard.
That's why a game like Full Thrust is so appealing - you can easily play
a fairly large game in that time, and you can keep 90% of the rules in your
head without ever refering to the book. The great thing about a simple rule
system is that it allows you to concentrate on gameplay and tactics, which for
me is ultimately what it's all about.
This leads me to my question. Does anyone out there have or know of a really
simple set of campaign rules for FT? I mean really simple. All the campaign
rules I've seen on the net look really good, but there is no way I could ever
get my gaming friends to find time to read them let alone play them. I need a
system that doesn't require massive amounts of bookkeeping (preferably none at
all), and in which the turns are fast, so that we can sit down and play a few
campaign turns and fight maybe a couple of battles in an evening. Possibly
even a set of mini campaign rules that would interface with Dirtside.
OK, I hear you say, if that's what you want why don't you shut up and write
them yourself. Well, I suppose I might just do that.. one day... when I get
the time. But if anyone out there has already beaten me to it then you'd be
making a lazy man very happy.
Everything you want has already been done in a MetaGaming classic still
available from Avalon Hill called "Stellar Conquest." Its generic. No attempt
what so ever at any background. Turns go fairly fast. Every
fourth turn is an economic/population growth phase. The rules will need
to be modified slightly to fit Full Thrust, and you should be able to
integrate Dirt Side without too much trouble.
The mounted map board has a bunch of different stars and gas clouds. Stars are
divided by spectral type. No exotic stars (neutron stars, black holes, etc.).
When you expore a system, there is not 10 minutes worth of dice rolling like
Imperial StarFire. Rather just pick a card from the top of the pile of cards
for that star type and flip it over. Everthing you need to know is right there
(Habitability and Mineral status of all useful plantes in that system).
Systems can have from zero to three useful planets.
Record keeping is not bad. The game includes a pad of record forms. On the
front is a ledger for keeping track of 13 different colonies for 44 turns. On
the back is the entire map shrunck down. Records for colonies are just the
basics. You have a space to identify the colony and type of planet, and data
lines for population, industry, and defenses.
The 12 pages of rules aren't bad (That includes the front and back of the
booklet that have no rules, 1 full page showing how to use the colony record
form, and another full page to show how to use the map on the back of the
record form). That's it. It is the simplest and best
"pre-fab" campaign available.
If you have any question about "Stellar Conquest," please ask. I'll be happy
to answer.
> At 10:42 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
Unfortunately, Stellar Conquest, being a "MetaGaming Classic", is probably
only slightly easier to come by than a Pterodactyl skin Stradivarius signed by
Elvis. I was pleasantly surprised to see that FT list newcomer(?) Winchell
Chung, the man who designed the grim visage of the most fearsome fighting
machine of the 21st Century yet still found time to maintain a pretty spiffy
3d Starmap page (you guys looking for realism in your space campaigns could do
a lot worse than visiting
http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html), had written an article
for
General on the game. What I was able to find on http://grognard.com/
didn't tell me much. Does anyone have a lead on how to get a look at this
system?
Take care,
> On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Imre A. Szabo wrote:
> Everything you want has already been done in a MetaGaming classic
*Sigh* Memories, ah, memories!
Stellar Conquest was my *first* SF boardgame, back in 1972. It came in a
manila envelope. It is still a classic.
It was the inspiration for several computer games, most notably Reach For The
Stars and Master of Orion.
My other most favorite game from the period is the classic TRIPLANETARY, with
newtonian vector movement by drawing vectors on the hex grid
with an erasable china-writer pencil.
Many people have tried to combine the two.
* A B S I T * I N V I D I A * V E R B O ** I D E M * S O N A N S *
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| WINCHELL CHUNG
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| Nyrath the nearly wise
nyrath@clark.net |
+---_---+---------------------[ SURREAL SAGE SEZ:
]--------------------------+
| /_\ | Death before dishonor, but neither before breakfast.
|
| <(*)> |
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|/_/|\_\|
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> On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Donald A. Chipman III wrote:
> Unfortunately, Stellar Conquest, being a "MetaGaming Classic", is
As far as I know, it is still available from Avalon Hill.
The game pioneered the now classic shipbuilding/research
dilemma. Each production period, you as ruler of your race has to decide if
you devote your resources on building ships and items with the *current* level
of technology, or spend resources on research in order to advance your level
of technology in various fields.
You don't want to be conquered by somebody who built a mass of primitive ships
while you were screwing around in the lab. But on the other tentacle, you
don't want to build a bunch of primitive ships, then discover that invading
your technologically advanced neighbor is like
a bunch of New Guinea headhunter war-canoes taking on
the Pacific Fleet.
The game starts off with lots of limits that can be defeated with research.
Ship interstellar speeds are slow, ships can only travel up to a certain limit
from the closest colony or they die (out of fuel), only certain types of
planets can be colonized, colonists reproduce at a limited rate, industrial
complexes have limited efficiency at turning the labor of colonists into
material goods (like interstellar warships), ships have to designate their
destination star when they leave orbit and cannot change it no matter what (no
interstellar communication), and of course your ships and defensive missile
bases have limited weapons.
> I was pleasantly surprised to see that FT list newcomer(?)
<blush> Guilty as charged. I was quite crushed when Avalon Hill didn't see fit
to incorporate the improvements I advocated in my article into the game. Oh
well. About three times a year, I get some kind of email along the lines of
"are you *THE* Winchell Chung, who made the Ogre?" My small claim to fame. The
starmap site was initially my attempt at
learning HTML. I had done work on 3-d starmaps
for decades, so I wrote about it. The site "just growed" into the monster it
is today. I've *got* to give it a good cleaning, many of the links are dead.
And there are about five SF authors who are writing books with maps they made
with my info!
* A B S I T * I N V I D I A * V E R B O ** I D E M * S O N A N S *
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| WINCHELL CHUNG
http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/home.html |
| Nyrath the nearly wise
nyrath@clark.net |
+---_---+---------------------[ SURREAL SAGE SEZ:
]--------------------------+
| /_\ | It's a particle! No, it's a wave! No, it's a dessert
topping! |
| <(*)> |
|
|/_/|\_\|
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| //|\\ |
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> Imre A. Szabo wrote:
I'll second that. Back before Imperial Starfire came out, may friends and I
used to use Stellar Conquest to play Starfire campaigns.
> Winchell Chung wrote:
My first wargame was Metagaming's Warpwar. Very simple, easy to modify. I
still like that game after all these years.
> It was the inspiration for several computer games,
On the Triplanetary front, Steve Jackson bought the rights to it a while back.
On his webpage, he says he wants to come out with a NEW version, including new
rules, more scenarios, ect. It is on the back burner for now.
> * A B S I T * I N V I D I A * V E R B O ** I D E M * S O N A N S
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> | WINCHELL CHUNG
]--------------------------+
> | /_\ | Death before dishonor, but neither before breakfast.
|
> | <(*)> |
+///|\\\+---------------------------------------------------------------
-----+
> Donald A. Chipman III wrote:
> Unfortunately, Stellar Conquest, being a "MetaGaming Classic", is
Next time, please read my entire post. Stellar Conquest is still available by
the Avalon Hill, and as such can be purchased directly from Avalon Hill if you
can't find it in your local gaming shop.
> On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Donald Hosford wrote:
> My first wargame was Metagaming's Warpwar. Very simple, easy to
A nice game. My only gripe was the diceless combat system. (I did the artwork
for that game, by the way...)
> On the Triplanetary front, Steve Jackson bought the rights to it a
I know! I know! I wish it would get *off* the back burner. The game is a
classic, and deserves more recognition. Even the counters were cool!
* A B S I T * I N V I D I A * V E R B O ** I D E M * S O N A N S *
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| WINCHELL CHUNG
http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/home.html |
| Nyrath the nearly wise
nyrath@clark.net |
+---_---+---------------------[ SURREAL SAGE SEZ:
]--------------------------+
> At 05:12 PM 1/23/98 -0500, you wrote:
So it is, Imre. I hear the word "Metagaming" and I immediately flashback to
the little cardboard boxes from the early 80's (WarpWar, Chitin, etc) that
were like $2.50 each. Sorry. In fact, I went to Avalon Hill's site this
morning with the intent of purchasing Stellar Conquest based on your
recommendation, except their online ordering leaves a bit to be desired (none
of the games I looked at had prices, for example. "Just give us your Visa
number this unsecured commerce server and we'll deduct what we think is
right."). I suspect will
be forced to (gasp!) use their 1-800 number and risk transacting with an
actual human being.
Take care,
> Winchell Chung wrote:
COOOOOLL Artwork Dude! I have tried a couple of times to "dice it". With a
little success.
> > On the Triplanetary front, Steve Jackson bought the rights to it a
Maybe if we gamers pestered him enough, he will move it to a front
burner... I got a look at a friend's copy. It did look cool!
> * A B S I T * I N V I D I A * V E R B O ** I D E M * S O N A N S
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> | /_\ | "No no no," the Motie said immediately. "On Mote Prime
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> At 11:56 PM 1/23/98 -0800, you wrote:
I've gotten the feeling over the years by looking at the SJ games site that
Triplanetary is a certain favorite with Mr.Jackson and his friends (this based
on the Triplanetary optional rules and new scenerios on the IO site), although
I suspect that a fear of a lukewarm response by the gaming community has
dampened their drive to make it a reality (oddly enough, this
is from the guys who are publishing the GURPS sourcebook-- the
definative
roleplaying source for gamers everywhere-- for Russia. Honestly, how
many RPGers out there have played a Russian character before? Probably a few,
I'm sure, but probably not enough to justify a full book, even if it is only
available on the net). Anyway, this lends to the idea that SJG just needs to
be encouraged to take the Big Leap. I've never played Triplanetary, although I
have reviewed lots of material that references it, and it seems to be a total
winner with the players, so I say if you want it, deluge SJG with requests to
see the updated version. I suspect they want to see it in print as much as you
do.
Take care,
> DrRokter wrote:
> the main reason 'older' gamers like simple rules is mostly to do with
> Matt Hill
This is what brought me to FT. I was playing RPG's, Nuclear Armageddon, and
Battletech. All of which would take more than an evening to complete.
Someone mentioned that FT could be played in a couple hours. I decided to try
it
and have been hooked! We can normally play 1-3 games in an evening.
Great job Jon!