Comments on pop

3 posts ยท Oct 13 2000 to Oct 13 2000

From: Barclay, Tom <tomb@b...>

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:05:04 -0400

Subject: Comments on pop

Population ultimately isn't determinable short of Jon pronouncing his view of
how things are. I can see the models that some people subscribe to differ
significantly and assume a far higher level of population growth through mass
emmigration.

I'll only say this:

1) I looked at the economics in FT of shifting large masses of people (enough
to make a difference of say 1% to Earth's population). The amount of ship mass
required even with unsanctioned packing densities is still outrageous.

2) I base my conclusions on Earth as not overpopulated (necessarily) on two
things: 1) the fact the biosphere can probably comfortably support a fair few
more people than we have now, 2) talks with Beth where we briefly touched on
some UN population studies which suggest maybe our population will actually
decrease (though that is pretty hopeful) to the idea that
we'll peak out somewhere (IIRC) around 6-9 billion - which is fine given
the advances in biological and energy technology we're talking about. The new
technologies will become ubiquitious and cheap, thus solving a number of
problems in the developing world - even if they are still 100 years
behind the times, they should have food and water and be able to sustain
trade.

3) Increasing life spans and economic prosperity kill birth rates. If people
are positing 80 year lifespans (avg) in the colonies, figure that birth rates
will be unlikely to encourage people to have 8 kids. Even in the colonies, it
won't necessarily be economically expedient to have 8 children in 2183. The
Earth itself, if it reaches a stage where people have life, work, etc and can
see a better life by spending time in their lives doing something and who
don't need to have 8 children to have 2 live and who live to an old age will
combine to depress Terran birthrates.

I forsee Earth as resource-damaged (we'll find new resources by
exploration, we'll find new ways to harvest old resources and use new things,
and we'll find more advanced recycling) but not depleted, as perhaps
population stable
or at least in slow growth in the 6-9 million range, and I see it as
likely some areas will in fact be inhospitable. But the technology for cleanup
of messes will be much much higher (they have radiation eating bacteria today)
so I suspect the mess of places like Israel won't last forever. The cost of
shipping people in statistically significant numbers off planet would be very
high. The cost of protecting those shipments from your enemies would be back
breaking. And only the ESU and a few others could do it "against the will" of
the settlers.

Further, based on the canon statements about the length of time it took to
populate Albion to the level of England (which is a drop in the on-Earth
NAC bucket... the three Americas have huge populations...) surely suggest
something about the rate at which people from developing people are rushing to
the colonies (ie not terribly fast) and even that growth was achieved with
significant effort. Assuming that was a significant effort, you have a limited
amount to expend on other colonies, so their growth is thereby limited. Now,
sure colonization could have increased. But would it have increased to give
the numbers some have suggested? YMMV. I don't think so. And as for Chris'
comment - I don't forsee people having 8 kids in an environment where
they live to 80 and where mortality does not claim six of those kids. Maybe
even 4, but unlikley 8. And as an average? You must be using cloning vats.
<which is, I concede, a possibility not accounted for>

My suggestion is Earth's population is 6-9 Billion (maybe 10-11 if we
want
to assume some crowding). I'd suggest off-Earth population all together
totals no more than 25% of the on-Earth figure.

Beth, you must have something to say and some work to procrastinate....

From: Laserlight <laserlight@q...>

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:32:48 -0400

Subject: Re: Comments on pop

> colonization could have increased. But would it have increased to give
<which
> is, I concede, a possibility not accounted for>

Is why I said Hypothetica, not the AE (which grew from 1million to about 37
million over this time span and that includes significant immigration).

From: Allan Goodall <agoodall@a...>

Date: 13 Oct 2000 13:18:07 -0700

Subject: Re: Comments on pop

> On Fri, 13 October 2000, "Barclay, Tom" wrote:

> 1) I looked at the economics in FT of shifting large masses of people

I agree. You won't get 1 million people on colonies by 2070. MAYBE by 2370.

> 2) I base my conclusions on Earth as not overpopulated (necessarily)
on two
> things: 1) the fact the biosphere can probably comfortably support a

Estimates I've read suggest we can handle up to 13 billion. Note that the
world will hit a population crunch in some nations well before we hit the
limit. It' s already happening. And this is also assuming that we end up doing
something t o stop potentially catastrophic changes, such as ozone depletion
and green hous e gas emission, that is already happening.

> 2) talks with Beth where we briefly

This is achievable theoretically. It's a problem socially, but we have more
tha
n adequate -- and safe -- methods of birth control.

> 3) Increasing life spans and economic prosperity kill birth rates. If

I think that, in most cases, you are NOT going to get women having 8 child
fami lies in the future. A lot, socially and economically, has changed since
the day s when one in three births resulted in the death of the mother, the
baby, or bo th. By 2070, colonization will be more mechanical and less manual.
If Jon's hug e starships are run by a fraction of the crew size of modern day
equivalents, e xpect the same for mining and farming.