Catholics in Space!

> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

For a further exploration of this theme, try George R.R. Martin's collection
of short stories, "Sand Kings."

It has a very nice sci-fi story about an Inquisition
soldier off to put down heresy in the outer colonies.

[quoted original message omitted]

In a message dated 12/21/01 7:52:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk writes:

> I was thinking along the lines of a catholic battle fleet, under the

> never

Well, there are the Templars, and Hospitallers. They could definitely be a
start for how to organize this. In fact the Templars actually had a fleet that
disappeared when the order went out to round up the whole order for

heresy.

From: JRebori682@aol.com
> Well, there are the Templars, and Hospitallers. They could definitely

The Hospitallers had a fleet for quite a while after that. One of the
Cariibean islands was a Hospitaller possession for a while, gifted to

> Bif Smith wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
Instand
> enemies for the IF (keeps them off everyone elses backs, anyway). For

And I thought the GZG UN was implausible! I could see the Holy See
(sp?)
sending out long range probes to explore space, discover new intelligent
species and cultures, and translate the bible into the local language, but not
anything more aggressive than proselytizing.

Hordes of starships stamping out heresy is a Puritan (protestant) thing, more
likely to spring from a tightly knit group of born-again christians,
than from Roman Catholics. A Catholic battlefleet (the only probable excuse
for a Swiss Space Navy) would be purely defensive. The odds of them being in
combat with the IF is just about nil. The evolution of the western idea of
seperate spheres of influence makes it unlikely for a purely "catholic" fleet.
The Church may annoint the leaders and caution them against sin, but (except
for squelching unjust wars), will let the temporal authorities deal with
temporal things, while the Church takes care of spiritual affairs. Unlike
Islam or Judaism, Christianity does not explicitly spell out how to run
anything but your

From: Richard and Emily Bell <rlbell@sympatico.ca>
> Hordes of starships stamping out heresy is a Puritan (protestant)
thing, more
> likely to spring from a tightly knit group of born-again christians,

Beg your pardon? The Catholic Church preached the original crusades right
after Manzikert, and continued to stamp out heretics (eg the Albigensians) for
quite a while. The Papal States sent ships to Lepanto and IIRC had their own
troops until mid 1800's or so.

In any event, I don't see a church (Catholic or Protestant) having much in the
way of ships; as you said, Christianity influences the politics of the state
it's in but doesn't straitjacket it the way

> Laserlight wrote:

> From: Richard and Emily Bell <rlbell@sympatico.ca>

The power of the Papacy went into a nosedive once there was more than one
christian church in western europe.  Once Martin Luther's ninety-nine
theses were nailed to that door, the temporal power of the Papacy was
doomed.  The Vatican City does have a small self-defence force of Swiss
troops (formerly mercenaries, but now the volunteers from the Swiss army)
[useless trivia: by treaty, the Pope's Swiss guard are the only swiss
men-at-arms allowed outside the border of Switzerland].  If stardrives
had been invented in the fifteenth century, ravaging spacefleets bent on
exterminating heresy were possible, but the succeeding centuries did not leave
the Church with the strength to field large forces of any sort.

Well, let's put it this way... the Mongol Empire under the Khans got a lot of
refugees seeking asylum from the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages...
because under the Mongols, nobody cared what god you worshipped as long as you
bent knee to the Khans.

Meanwhile, the Lutherans were hardly permitted to go quietly away from Rome,
and Elizabeth I had a very real struggle just to stay alive long enough to
take the throne after Bloody Mary's purges (which were heartily supported by
the Pope), much less survive as a Protestant Queen. It was not until the
Spanish Armada was defeated that England became safely Protestant.

Under the Catholic Church, even an idea so simple as stating that the earth
was not the center of the universe was a heresy punishable by death.
Copernicus did not dare publish his book theorizing that the earth orbitted
around the sun until he was on his deathbed. Galileo underwent quite a bit of
pressure from the Church to repudiate his theories under threat of being
burned at the stake. It's only been in the last ten years that the Church has
finally conceded that Galileo's theories were right.

The Catholic Church of the Middle Ages has easily as much blood on its hands
as any religious institution of the last millenium. The Turks (when they
converted to Islam rather fanatically and were motivated to forge the Ottoman
Empire in blood) and the Aztecs (with a rather brutal and sacrificial
spiritual belief set in general) give them a run for their money, but the
Catholic Church has been far from a peaceful organization.

[quoted original message omitted]

[quoted original message omitted]

> On 24-Dec-01 at 15:25, Don M (dmaddox1@hot.rr.com) wrote:

> Yes all too true but sadly we have become wimps!

One tac-nuke at the convention where the new pope
is chosen in Rome, extremist moving the Papacy to the planet of New Rome, and
the air of Martyrdom and suppression that Christianity likes to project even
when it happens to be the one doing the suppresion and you have a new Catholic
empire.

Come on, it's Sci-Fi.  Have none of you read any
science fiction where the Catholics return to their old bad ways?

And no, I have no problems with Catholicism.

[quoted original message omitted]

Didn't the Dorsai series have a 'bad' "Good Guys" group aping Puritans in
Space?

Gracias,
Glenn/Triphibious@juno.com
This is my Science Fiction Alter Ego E-mail address.
Historical - Warbeads@juno.com
Fantasy and 6mm - dwarf_warrior@juno.com
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 16:24:13 -0600 "Don M" <dmaddox1@hot.rr.com> writes:

> On 24-Dec-01 at 17:26, Don M (dmaddox1@hot.rr.com) wrote:

Only vaguely. I still remember being shocked when the Priest came on the
intercom on the ship just before we pulled in from a Med cruise.

"Some of you have done things you shouldn't have on this cruise. Don't let it
destroy your marriage. If you really must confess, even if you aren't
Catholic, come confess to me. That's why I'm here."

I could just imagine the wives getting the same advice from a civilian priest.
Fortunately I was able to contain myself and not roll around laughing.

That was my first indication that Catholicism was very different from the
varieties of Protestants I grew up with in the midwest.

Subject: Re: Catholics in Space!

> > The Catholic Church of the Middle Ages has easily as much blood on

We're straying into realms of OT-ness, but here's my 2 oblate's worth.

My background: as a young kid, I went to one of the few Baptist churches in
the UK. I say with some smugness that I always got 1st prize at Sunday School.
Later on, at age 7, the nearest church was High and I do mean High Anglican. I
was a choirboy, in Ruff, surplice etc. My wife, mother and sister are all
Catholics, and my son was recently christened in a Catholic church. Oh yes,
and my wife scored a High Distinction in Theology at University. I think it
was the essay involving Mary Baker Eddy and Joseph Smith that directly
challenged the basic beliefs of the course supervisor that did it. He was an
honest man.

Anyway, here's my opinion: The Anglican (in the US Episcopalian) church
is but pre-Vatican 2 Catholicism without the Pope or Priestly celebacy,
at least in the High form. Post-Vatican 2 catholicism is way more
relaxed,
laid-back and even a bit touchy-feely new-age-ish.
The bad press that Middle-Age Catholicism has got is just that - bad
press. All the printing presses were in Northern Europe, and the massive
outpouring
of anti-Catholic propaganda has come down through history as the only
record of the time that most people know. And it's mostly Propaganda of the
most mendacious kind.

Here's a question for you: In its 400 year history, How many people in toto
did the Spanish Inquisition burn (or cause to be burnt)?

a) Millions b) Hundreds of thousands c) Tens of thousands d) Thousands e)
Hundreds f) Tens

Correct answer is e). Surprised the heck out of me, too.

On the gripping hand... The Papacy has been hijacked many times, sometimes
for centuries, by some really unsavoury power-merchants. Theocracies are
a particularly nasty form of Tyranny. Worse, the reason why the Church got
such bad PR, since the presses all belonged to their opponents, was very much
because those in power didn't want literacy for the masses. (bad
pun).
Fortunately for all concerned, the Catholic Church having been divested of its
temoporal power can now concentrate on what it should be doing, and the Papacy
isn't sought by the same unsavoury means as, say, the US Presidency
(zing!)
Bringing things back on topic, much as I hate to say it, if the Catholic
Church ever did gain the same amount of temporal power as, say, the USA has
today, I doubt if as an institution it would use it so wisely and so well.
In the OGRE-verse, the Papacy has regained a bit of power, and the
Gold-and-Purple
Cybertanks of the Vatican Guard are rightly feared. So a SF setting with
Catholics in Space is legit.

Comparison with the Ottomans is quite appropriate. They suffered from much the
same problem, Islamic Civilisation never having recovered its spirit of
tolerance and enlightenment after the Mongols destroyed Persia, worse luck.
Then there's the Crusades against the Hussites, Moldavians etc. Dark, bloody
and awful deeds. Oh yes, the 30 years war, the sack of Magdeburg, and God only
knows how many disgusting atrocities done in the name of Holy
Mother Church. Some people never do get the word - take a look at the
behaviour of some Serbs to some Bosnians.

Heck, it's as bad as some of the things done by the Puritans in the US

> Didn't the Dorsai series have a 'bad' "Good Guys" group aping

The Friendlies, IIRC.

On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:02:44 -0500 "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
writes:
> Didn't the Dorsai series have a 'bad' "Good Guys" group aping
Sounds like some group in the Dorsai series, probably them.

Interestingly they and their apparent antithesis (the zen'ish types) both were
needed to provide the training and skills the hero attained in one of the
books (the last one I read was this monster paperback and I think I never got
the concluding volume. The real bad guys (IMO) seemed to be the guys who
combined the same skills without any morality.

Any group, properly caricatured can become a bad guy in a
game/book/movie.

Gracias,

On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 10:41:56 +1100 "Alan and Carmel Brain"
> <aebrain@austarmetro.com.au> writes:
<snip>
> Oh yes, and my wife scored a High Distinction in Theology at

LOL, now that's an unlikely pair to draw to!

<snip>
> The bad press that Middle-Age Catholicism has got is just that - bad

If you're going to lie... Might as well make it a Big Lie. Where have I heard
that recently?

> Here's a question for you:

Of course for the persons involved it 100% fatal.

> On the gripping hand... The Papacy has been hijacked many times,

Power corrupts and absolute power...

I think about some of my fellow evangelicals and imagine them actually
achieving potent political power... shudder.

When I was a teen aged I remember the Pope coming over her and the broadside
of lies I found on my window from a (IIRC) Tony Alamo and his church (The only
true church of course) that was so grossly off base that even I (who then
considered the Antichrist would be some Pope present or
future - don't ask, it was a common belief of the times in some
Protestant circles) was upset by it's use of outlandish rumors being treated
as (excuse the pun) gospel.

No group is immune from the abuses of power and self-fulfilling
prophecy.

> In the OGRE-verse, the Papacy has regained a bit of power, and the

True. But the Reformation all over again in space... pretty messy.

> Comparison with the Ottomans is quite appropriate. They suffered from

What was the theory in the late 1960's - no minority was going to
oppress anyone because they had suffered oppression and hence would be
incapable of treating their oppressors as they had been treated (at least in
degree) IIRC. We swallowed a lot of myths in that period only for reality to
wake us up years later.

> But the Aztecs were a different kettle of fish entirely. Along with

Who of course were objective and pure as Polly Purebread I'm sure.

> OK, I've managed to upset nearly everybody.

The definition of equal treatment.

So in summary:
> Merry Christmas, Peace on Earth and Goodwill to all Men.

I thought it went (NIV) "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men
on whom his favor rests." Luke 2:14

> (what about Space? And waht about Aliens? Them too, even more so,

Evangelical Aliens versus Human Catholics.... there is some potential
there...
<grin>

Gracias,

[quoted original message omitted]

> On 25-Dec-01 at 05:55, K.H.Ranitzsch (KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de) wrote:

Glenn said:
> I think about some of my fellow evangelicals and imagine them

You could say "I think about some of <insert any group you care to name> and
imagine them..." et cetera. And it's easy to say "Of course *I* wouldn't be
like that" but most of us haven't been in a position with those temptations.
We all have heard Lord Acton's quote, but remember it often goes: "Power
corrupts; but absolute power is pretty neat!"

This is one reason why the GZGverse has no "Good Guys." Even if you have a
saint in office right now, there's no guarantee that his successor is going to
live up to the same standards. (The other reason, of course, is that it gives
more reasons for battles).

--- Alan and Carmel Brain <aebrain@austarmetro.com.au>
wrote:

> Anyway, here's my opinion: The Anglican (in the US

As a Catholic I knew once but it, "Catholics are just
johnny-come-lately Lutherans."

> Here's a question for you:

The seconds point is the important one--IIRC, the
Inquisition couldn't actually execute anyone. They had to hand over death
penalty cases to the Spanish courts.

> Comparison with the Ottomans is quite appropriate.

Not a choice I'd want to make. Although, "Better the Sultan's Turban than the
Cardinal's Hat" was a fairly popular saying when the Orthodox Church was
considering union with the Latins as an alternative to conquest of the City by
the Turk.

> Then there's the Crusades against the Hussites,

That doesn't count. Getting kicked around by a bunch of farmers counts as
stupidity, not opression.

> Mother Church. Some people never do get the word -

Who are Orthodox, not Catholic. Croats are the Catholic psychos (well, them
and the Irish except for those who are Prod psychos).