Brian's comments on naming - my (sort of) rebuttal

3 posts ยท Oct 12 2000 to Oct 12 2000

From: Barclay, Tom <tomb@b...>

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:16:23 -0400

Subject: Brian's comments on naming - my (sort of) rebuttal

Some of your comments I'm totally in line with, only you with your Colonial
Sympathies (heh) are accusing me of Terra centric thinking. Assume for a
moment the UN current hopeful mode population models for earth are right.
Assume that we use the little canon data on population to model the growth
of the colonies. Even assume I throw in all the wee non canon-affecting
powers in. The sum total of the population in space will still be
SIGNIFICANTLY less than the population on Earth.

The Colonies are important for political reasons, for future development, for
strategic reasons, and for resources. But EARTH is hugely important
(obviously, its typed in capitals!). It is the cradle of humanity, it has a
huge (even if the hopeful figures are used - if pop reduction did not
happen, it has a really really huge population), contains most of the
established institutions (with hundreds of years of history) in politics,
economics, academics, engineering, etc. and it is HQ to most of the largest
corporate interests in the Human Sphere. This is just based off of simple
population and history realities.

Now, do the Colonies matter? Yes. Was establishing a symbolic UK presence and
a Palace at Albion politically savvy and expedient? Yes. Does it mean the
Government doesn't still rule from England? Think again.

Not saying I believe the NAC a likely beast in the first place, but assuming
we live with that distortion of probability, we can postulate some things.

1) Nobles can exist anywhere. They aren't like Feudal Nobles - they
don't hold absolute power. They probably do exist in the US. Postulate a US
hard
up enough to get the UK to help put them back together - so shaken to
the core that they can't get their act together themselves and they'd submit
to the King. In that kind of setting, people (esp maybe those from the South?)
might well welcome the return of the symbolic (and thats mostly what it is)
monarch and his peerage. Return of civilization, constancy of the crown
through the millenia, etc. Sure some folk wouldn't like it - but that
would be like current day UK! I think it quite possible that a peerage could
be established in the States and Canada. Heck, Conrad Black is fighting for
it! <in joke for Canadians>

2) The Colonies would be a brilliant place for the peerage - especially
people who gain knighthoods and small estates and title from work civilizing
the new worlds. Great idea. Increased gene pool for the nobles of the RH and
NAC to marry too - fewer inbreedings. Though they'll still end up
hearing German in the court every so often...

3) Between the Royal Colonial Mounted Police (brilliant!) and a peerage, the
flavour of the Colonies would be very much "new world with old world backing".
This would probably lead to the Colonies being mostly quite nice
spots - especially the developed worlds like Albion.

4) As for Latin America, figure it as somewhat similar to Ireland. Sure there
would be some places NAC troops would need riot gear, but if the elected
government included Latinos, and some were given minor peerages, then you
would find the government would probably not have a huge issue with
being foreign controlled - not because of a lack of national pride, but
because the NAC could very much help bring peace and prosperity to some
troubled areas. Stability and prosperity sell very well in places that do
not have it. If you can provide it (deliver on your promises - in this
case backed up by a huge military, economy, and structure of law and
institutions of same), then you'll win over the people. Sure there will be
terrorists and independence minded rebels. Welcome to 2183... seems like
1883...

Off earth, the LLAR may well adopt a new name except we think they keep the
old one for nostalgia and to allow them to continue their official policy of
recapturing their lands. If they actually changed names, it would mean
admitting they'd finally lost.

I really really like Karl-Heinz suggestions about NSL being so named due
to the city where the League founding negotiations were conducted. Brilliant.
Makes the regional name less problematic...

Plus, when we talk about the New Yorkshire Confederation, did I miss
something? Isn't East Anglia (or some such) what NAC draws its A from? Isn't
it already a regionally named entity? And isn't Needham somewhere near there?

As for the PAU and IF, RH and IC, I think they are well named. The OU
is...
well, the OU. It probably does try to claim any water bearing (ergo life
supporting) rock no one else has... (seems to be OU doctrine). They must
have recruited explorers/claimstakers from the US Patent Office.

The FSE? Well, as the Etats Federal Europa, that's not bad. Don't tell me
that the French and Italians (and anyone else - Portugese?) in that
association don't consider themselves quintessential Europeans. Probably the
name, like many such things in our world, hangs on as a vestige of the past
where the French weren't separating from Europe when the Germans formed
their own league - the Germans were separating from Europe. The French
were preserving it. Hence the retention of European. Or at least that is one
sort of passable reasoning.

Unrelated:

<HUMOR MODE>

Oh, and if you read this Jer, don't bring your katana to GZGECC. 1) Canadian
customs would hassle you coming home. We don't like people with weapons that
can hurt people in Canada. That's why we cork all of our forks.

2) I know how good your eyes are... and unless you swing just by sound you're
likely to take down some innocents. I'd have to get Carlos to sneak up behind
you and bop you on the noggin so we could take it away from you. Although, he
did tell me about a neat strobing laser he'd played with that
induced nasea - that would probably do the trick.

</HUMOR MODE>

From: Laserlight <laserlight@q...>

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:39:33 -0400

Subject: Re: Brian's comments on naming - my (sort of) rebuttal

Tom Barclay said:

> <HUMOR MODE>

"Innocents" at GZG ECC? Surely "neutrals" wold be a better term?

And Jerry was just offering to bring, not swing. I suppose I'd have to be the
one swinging.

From: Allan Goodall <agoodall@a...>

Date: 12 Oct 2000 13:11:45 -0700

Subject: Re: Brian's comments on naming - my (sort of) rebuttal

> On Wed, 11 October 2000, "Barclay, Tom" wrote:

> I think it quite possible that a peerage could be

Personally, I see the NAC losing this aspect of British culture, or having it
f ade away like the French monarchy. If you're looking for an analogy to the
Brit ish monarchy in the NAC, check out how Dan Simmons did it in his Hyperion
novel s. "Sad King Billy" is actually William, the Kind of Great Britain. Of
course, he has no authority and is simply the guy of noble birth who, if you
traced bac k his ancestors, would have been the king. Instead of the Kennedy's
ascending t o some sort of nobility or peerage, British royalty would probably
be just anot her rich family with a legacy.

Personally (as the son of a rampant Scots Nationalist) I'd be sort of pleased
t o see the Hanovers... uh, I mean the Windsors equated with the Kennedy's.
Not m uch difference, really (except the Windsors are better drivers. *grin*).

> 2) The Colonies would be a brilliant place for the peerage -

Historically, the Colonies were NOT the place for peerages. If you follow
Canad ian and US history, you'll see that aristocracy was loathe to move to
the New W orld. When they did, they found that their hard earned (that is,
inherited) pow er translated to a whole lot less in the New World. What you
could see is somet hing like Ontario's Family Compact, where a small oligarchy
took over control o f what was supposed to be a democracy. It took the Upper
Canada Rebellion, a co uple of hangings, and the intervention of Britain to
bring that to an end.

> 3) Between the Royal Colonial Mounted Police (brilliant!) and a

I'll bow to the "Royal Colonial Mounted Police". I was trying to come up with
a name based on their original title, the Northwest Mounted Police, but gave
up.
 *S*

> 4) As for Latin America, figure it as somewhat similar to Ireland.
Sure
> there would be some places NAC troops would need riot gear, but if the

I see this follows the Star Trek view of a big, happy nation. Personally, I
thi nk the racial and economic divide will get bigger before it gets smaller.
Howev er, I think you'll find fewer racial problems in the colonies though.

> I really really like Karl-Heinz suggestions about NSL being so named
Brilliant.
> Makes the regional name less problematic...

I agree.