We are trying to recreate the Battle of Neu Bremen. This is rather a large
undertaking considering that not one but two Jeanne D'Arc class fleet
carriers. We will be using the operational movement system out of Star Fire.
But there are other considerations and here are a few
1/ It was an Ambush. What does this mean?
2/ Who owned the system at the time NSL or FSE?
3/ What does the system look like and what are the main assets found
there?
4/ In a recreated battle both players know more than the original force
commanders so how is this "god mode" suppressed?
5/ What forces were available to each force?
I have tried to answer some of these questions but I would like anyones impute
1/Ambush. From my limited experience on ambushes they tend to be set
piece battles (rather than an immediate ambush drills) where you can
concentrate an enormous amount of fire power to totally overwhelm the enemy
(who is hopefully surprised). They are usually placed on known enemy routes
(supply lines) or cut off forces (stopping enemy escaping after a battle) The
largest ambush I've been in (an exercise, live fire) was an infantry company
with an APC troop (12) attached along with a battery (6) of 105s. It all
looked very nice and made heaps of noise but it was a ground force. This
brings me to my question how do you ambush in space?
5/ Forces available?
I was thinking FSE two colonial CVA battle groups (FT: Unofficial Fleet
Roster) plus
2/3 DD
groups and a CA group attached about 18000 pts
NSL the First Fleet (Von Tegetthoff FT: Unofficial Fleet Roster) plus
2/3 DD
groups and 2 CA groups attached about 28,000 pts
All of these forces would not be in the same area at the same time as a star
system is a large place. I'm not looking for something like Röt Hafen as this
was more a battle of the line but rather the FSE was looking to do some major
damage to the NSL system but got in over their head
well thats all so far I welcome any and all suggestions
Cheers
Replies by:
-----
Brian Bell
brian_bell@dscc.dla.mil
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/ft/
-----
> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
> 1/Ambush. [snip]
[Bri]
An ambush could be launched in space in a number of ways. All of them suppose
that you will know (guess) the route that the enemy will take. And all of them
suppose that the ambush point is not where the target can Jump out. 1) Hide in
the "shadow" of a planet or large asteroid until your remote passive sensors
indicate the enemy fleet is at a given point. This may give you a first shot
opportunity. But then you would need to catch the group that you were
ambushing. Thus, you would need to have faster ships than the target. 2). Same
as #1, but use a cloaking field. 3) Hound to the Hunters. Use a fairly large
force to chase or drive the target to the real strength of your force. The
chasing force would need to be of sufficient size that the target force would
try to evade it (but not
jump out). A large slower force with fast out-riders may be the best for
this. The main group should be at least 2x the strength of the target force.
Also, the main group would likely be hiding as in #1 or 2. Again the main
group would need enough engine power to catch the target group. 3a) If the
main group is not hidden, the chasing group would need to be quick enough to
allow a pincher or envelopment type maneuver. Again, these are not realistic
in space, but would work well on a game board. 3b) Another variation of #3
would place the main group at the destination of the target group. IN this
case, both the chasing group and the main group would need to be quicker than
the target group (otherwise the target group would avoid the two groups).
4) You could drive/lure the target group into an obstacle. What
obstacle could be in space?...hmmm... While it seems hoaky, you could pin them
against a mine field. The mine field would need to be _VERY_ large.
Other obstacles would be a ring system of a planet or an asteroid belt. 5) You
could present a fake convoy of merchant ships and entice them to
follow and attack them. The merchant ships would serve a 2-fold purpose.
1.
Draw the target to your main force. 2. Make the convoy Q-Ships with a
lot of firepower (Fighters? Missiles?), but little in the way of hull
structure.
[/Bri]
[snip]
> Cheers
Replies by:
-----
Brian Bell
brian_bell@dscc.dla.mil
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/ft/
-----
> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
[Bri]
Again, you could use drones, bogies, and weasle boats to show the enemy
several groups of enemys to react against.
Also, in an ambush, the transponder/IFF signals of the ships would be
switched or changed. So the ship that the enemy would know as the "Red Horse"
would show to scanners as "Purple Dragon".
Allow some lattitude in the ship mix. Take 25-50% of the points and
allow them to be exchanged for other ships. Still enforce "fleet doctrine" of
a
mixed fleet (such as 1 ships under 51 mass for every ship 50-100 mass, 2
ships of 50-100 mass for every ship over 100 mass and 4 ships of 101-150
mass for every ship over 200 mass, or some such house rule). Once in scanner
range, there is not a lot that can be done.
[/Bri]
[snip]
> Cheers
> 1/ It was an Ambush. What does this mean?
I would figure that this involved either:
(A) A force hidden in an asteroid belt or planetary ring system.
(B) The FSE force being pinioned between two NSL forces. On the tabletop, this
could very simply be represented by the FSE force near the center of the
table, and one NSL force entering from either end.
> 2/ Who owned the system at the time NSL or FSE?
I'd say NSL, though it may have been in contest at the time.
> 3/ What does the system look like and what are the main assets found
I'd say that this is up to your own feavered imagination. However: for the FSE
to risk two carriers on the system, it must have something (in resources,
manufacturing capacity, or strategic location) VERY spiffy.
> 4/ In a recreated battle both players know more than the original force
Make it so it really doesn't matter. If the FSE is being ambushed, start the
scenario as the trap is sprung. This way there is no way for them to "see it
coming." You can make sure that neither player knows the other's force
composition at the start, and possibly add more uncertainty by having small un
its of "reinforcements" arrive after the battle is joined.
I would avoid the strategic element entirely, and concentrate on getting the
tactical scenario right before heading into those muddled waters.
> 5/ What forces were available to each force?
Once again. Up to your imagination.
On the FSE end of things, it has to be at least two carriers and their support
groups.
On the NSL side, is has to be at least enough to beat the tar out of the FSE.
> 1/ It was an Ambush. What does this mean?
In Honor Harrington - just lying doggo powered down was used to
spring an ambush
In a message dated 11/16/99 3:34:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> niklinnell@geocities.com writes:
> 1/Ambush. From my limited experience on ambushes they tend to be set
same thing aplies: Hid in cover, a planet or large moon would work and then
there at the proper range you come out and blow them up.
-Stephen
> Nik wrote:
(snippage)
> 4/ In a recreated battle both players know more than the original
How about allowing the ambushing player to use blank counters on the
operational map? The forces would only be shown when encountered. A little
psycalogical warfare there.
Perhaps each blank counter should have at least one something behind it.
(weasle boat, escorts, ect)
(snippage)
> Cheers
> 3/ What does the system look like and what are the main assets
for the
> FSE to risk two carriers on the system, it must have something (in
Or it could be just a route the FSE was taking their carriers from the
shipyard to their duty point, and they just weren't expecting a fight.
However, given the system name Neu Bremen implies NSL occupancy, so maybe not.
Or maybe the NSL was a little late transmitting the declaration of war.
> 4/ In a recreated battle both players know more than the original
Lie to your players.
> On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Laserlight wrote:
> >>4/ In a recreated battle both players know more than the original
Yep. Works Great. Don't have each player put all assets on the table at once.
They get renforcements. Those renforcements are expected, but not known. It
adds an air of uncertainty to the battle.
ie
FSE intel:
Above the already detected vessels, we have just detected another unidentified
group of vessels emerging from FTL. We are not expecting any ships from that
locale at this point so you must assume they are hostile. We are assuming it
is a CVL due to extra system intel and sensor data.
NAC intel: Fleet Carrier RNS Cyclops is expected in your area of operations,
however we are not certain when they are due to arrive. Expect support at no
sooner than XX time...
It makes the FSE player work fast to try to deal with what he has at the
time. If he doesn't the tide will turn.
Worked well with a Dirtside game...
My 2c worth on Neu Bremen:
2 FSE Carriers "ambushed". How to ambush a Carrier?
Game 1. The FSE player is told that he's caught an NSL system by surprise. His
mission is to go in and obliterate the NSL fortresses, Planetary-based
fighters etc using SMs and Fighters, and wait for the transports to arrive.
Victory Conditions: FSE: Do as much damage for as few casualties as possible.
NSL: Do as much damage as possible, regardless of losses.
[quoted original message omitted]
Thanks so far for your impute but I want more.
Here's what is set in concrete (the soft kind)
BACKGROUND Neu Bremen shadows its German namesake in that it is an important
shipping and ship building nexus. Due to its heavy metal crust planetside and
the two
iron/nickel rich belts the system has become a jewel in NSL's crown.
Many of the NSL's major war efforts are concentrated here. Because of this
there tends to be major fleet elements concentrated in and around the system.
In 2182 L'Astromarine was under enormous pressure to justify the incredible
cost of the new capital ships coming online. Fleet command came up with the
stunning idea of hitting the NSL where they thought they were safe. A full
four battle groups were slated for the attack which was to be a raid aiming at
crippling ship building based around the gas giant Rathaus, ore mining in one
if not both belts and if possible land a raiding force planet side to destroy
the under ground industrial plants based around the capital. Another six
cruiser groups with attached destroyer groups were to attack the fleet outpost
of Halle a number of days earlier in a diversionary attack designed to draw a
large portion of the fleet elements away from Neu Bremen The Clemenceau and
Animoso battle groups were to hit the belt planetoid ore processing plants in
two separate thrusts. Fleet command felt that one battle group each would more
than overwhelm the defences known to be found here. The Charlemagne and the
Dreyfus carrier groups were to engage the heaver defended mini system of the
gas giant Rathaus. Found here were major navy yards of the Kriegsraumflotte.
This is where the diversionary attack on Halle was hoped to bleed away vital
defenders.
HISTORICAL OUTCOME On July 14th 2182 a large FSE fleet warped in to the Neu
Bremen system high above the orbital plane of the primary. Two smaller
elements broke away and proceeded to burn towards the systems two asteroid
belts, the third and larger group moved on towards the systems largest
navigational point apart from the primary.
The two smaller battle groups engaged light resistance and moved into and then
through the target areas with medium to high successes on primary targets.
They then proceeded to executed a high energy burn to disengage below the
orbital plane to safe FTL distance. As they were about to disengage from the
system reports started to come through as the third battle group engaged.
All fighter groups along with main battle line ships moved to engage the
orbital fortresses surrounding the navy yards. The CVAs and CVLs hung back
with a light escort. Resistance was heavier than expected. The NSL had not
fallen for the bait at Halle. As the main FSE battle group moved around the
gas giants equatorial plane a large NSL fleet slipped over the north pole
behind them. This caused the main FSE fleet to divert away from their primary
targets to engage the NSL fleet. The vector that the FSE fleet was travelling
along only allowed a passing quick battle. During this short but vicious fight
the Commander of the FSE carrier groups detected another fast moving NSL group
moving up from the south pole of the gas giant on a direct intercept with the
near defenceless FSE carriers. What ensued was a catastrophic tactical and
strategic loss for the FSE. Two FSE CVAs were lost and the Nue Bremen navy
yards were left intact. The Ambush at Neu Bremen had been sprung.
Well that's all so far. Needs a bit of fleshing out
Cheers