A colony is unlikely to have all the population concentrated in a small
area. A good chunk will be devoted to transportation - raw materials
and goods. Another will be devoted to making infrastructure - roads,
pipelines, electrical transmission. Another chunk will be devoted to
straight construction - buildings, factories, apartments, houses. Think
of how long it would take to generate enough single-family housing for
10,000 people, let alone hundreds of thousands. Admittedly most will be in
barrack type apartments for the first few years. Then there are
thousands of consumer goods - pen/pencil/electronic stylus, clothing,
shoes, eyeglasses, gloves, tires for vehicles, windows, drinking
glasses, plates, oven/cooking/heating appliance, lightbulbs, food
packaging, water containers, refrigeration units, doors, flashlights,
basic tools, plastic fasteners, zippers/velcro, tooth brushes, comm
units, etc. etc. Even if each item only requires one person to operate the
machin!
e, chances are you want to run them 24/7 to meet demand and so you
probably need 3 shifts, or 3 people per machine. Add in supervisiors for
direction, truck driver to bring in supplies, people to warehouse finished and
raw materials, distribution of goods (merchants or stores) then an
infrastructure to maintain all that (mechanics, handymen to replace light
bulbs, clean up crews to keep the streets and buildings clean) you can
probably imagine a huge number of people involved.
Paving a single lane road probably involves dozens of people between the
surveying, grading, laying down of pavment and such. If you can lay a few
miles a day, it would still take years to lay enough to provide coverage on a
medium (100,000 person) city, unless they all lived in
sky-rises. Alternatively you could have dozens of teams working at the
same time.
In addition, a population of 250,000 assuming 1st generation colonists
would be about 60% to 80% work capable - the rest being disabled or too
young to do meaningful work, this leaves you a work pool of only 150,000 to
200,000 workers. A later colony will have a decrease in working population due
to the aging of the population and probably a temporary decline due to a baby
boom once initial conditions have stabilized. The baby boom would draw some
females out of the pool during pregnancy and unless there is some sort of
creche or community day care, if a family had more than two kids, it would
seem to be more cost effective for home care. If there is a creche or
community day care, then a portion of the population is employed in this care,
taking away from manufacturing or technical postions.
Then there are basic services - medical, you probably need a doctor for
every 1,000 or 5,000 people: 50-250 doctors; a hospital or two or three
- probably one nurse or medical technician for every 10 beds, figure
enough bed capacity for a large outbreak - 1000 beds, another 100
nurses/techs times a fraction of three shifts for critical care units -
maybe 150 total. Administrators, maintenance, and such another 20-30
people.
Fire department/security - probably need 1 unit per 1000 housing units
with multiple units converging on larger fires (i.e. a 4 or 5 alarm
fire) Each unit would require 3-4 full time personnel with another 3-4
volunteers. Assume each housing unit holds 8 people - 250,000 people
occupy 31,250 units or 32 firefighting units - another 120 full time
personnel. Security is probably at a simlar level with 1 security unit per
1000 housing units, assume a 2 man team, two and half shifts per day = 160 men
plus administrative, mechanical support and other associated personnel.
Emergency transport - ambulance service - probably could be serviced by
10 or 20 teams total, but must be maintained 24/7 so count them as a
three man team times 3 shifts - another 180 personnel plus maintenance
for their vehicles.
Education - assuming a low student to teacher ratio - 1:20 or 1:15,
assuming education lasts a total of 17 years to the equivalent of a bachelors
degree, if 20% of the population is school aged that equates to 50,000 kids
then 2,500 people will be involved in teaching positions.
If there are continuing education courses (the ultimate distance learning via
FTL transmissions) then another portion of the work force is going to be
involved in education.
Research and advanced education: A portion of the resources of the colony are
going to be directed at understanding the planet they are on: the ecology, the
geology, hydrology, meterology and such. It would be unlikely that the
colonizers had the luxury of observing and studying the planet for decades
before moving in. Lessons from other planets may or may not be of use in
colonizing the new one and so research into the geological formations, the
weather patterns or water flows would be useful in locating new areas for
exploitation. Even if experienced geologists, meterologists, hydrologists,
biologists and chemists arrive in the first load, you can't expect new ones to
show up every 5 to ten years and must train your own. This requires an
institution of higher learning that allows further research into these fields.
Figure a hundred or so personnel allocated on a rotating basis to teach their
skills in an "advanced" class.
Then there is entertainment: Figure 1 bar per 5000 people - that's 50
bars. Assume half a dozen personnel to run and stock the bar - that's
another 300 people used. Then there is the whole alcohol industry with
manufacture, transport and storage. If the city is large enough, there
might be a local TV/Tri-D station that outputs news, movies, educational
programs. Figure another 100 people involved with that.
Infrastructure maintenance: City engineers, water treatment plant operators,
waste technicians etc. Someone has to maintain the roads, pipes, haul trash,
change street lights etc. Figure about 1000 people on three shifts to do
continual maintenance. This assumes that it doesn't snow in the city.
It takes quite a lot to run a city and you tend to get more overhead as
it gets larger - i.e organizing 10 people to do a job requires less than
1/10 the effort to organize 100 people. So as communities get larger
and larger, you are going to get a higher percentage of administrative
personnel.
So the bulk of jobs are going to be raw material extraction, transportation,
manufacture, distribution and the remainder are going to be the infrastructure
to support these areas.
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
> A colony is unlikely to have all the population concentrated in a
Roads are incredibly expensive to build and maintain. Is there any reason not
to use GEVs instead?
> apartments, houses. Think of how long it would take to generate
there are prefabbed houses now which take 4 people one weekend to erect.
> Education - assuming a low student to teacher ratio - 1:20 or 1:15,
electronic learning should help improve the studn to teacher ratio quite a
bit.
I can envision GEV's for use as inter-city transport but within the
city, they become less efficient - waiting at stop lights, making lots
of sharp turns... Roads will probably exist in and near cities/towns.
Plus do you want to constantly have the high pitched sound of a turbine
running outside your house?
Pre-fab houses are usually dependent on much of the difficult parts
being done - foundation, major utilities such as sewage and main water
line are already in. All the pre-fab parts are walls and a roof. Then
there is still electrical, interior plumbing and stuff like that to install.
When you add in the foundation pouring time and the effort to
dig in the sewage/water lines I would think it runs closer to a week to
put up a house. If it's more like a mobile home, then I think I would have
less structural integrity than a house with a concrete foundation. This might
be acceptable as a short term solution, but I would think that people would
want something more substantial.
Even if units only took 2 people a weekend, for 250,000 people that's either a
lot of weekends or a tremendous output of material from the
pre-fab factory in just a few weeks - 250,000 walls and 62,500 roofs for
a family of 4.
In either case, I think it means a lot of employment for people for a few
years.
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
Make-work. Think WPA in the USA in the 1930's.
> >apartments, houses. Think of how long it would take to generate
Or a group of Amish about 10 minutes....
> > Education - assuming a low student to teacher ratio - 1:20 or 1:15,
Not to mention that not ALL the kids will need a bachelor's degree -- on
a colony world, there will be plenty of opportunities to make a life for
yourself at any educational level. Home schoolong will help, and if we
assume/PHB our way into the setting where large farms and ranches are
established not because it takes that much space to grow food, but because
that much land is a reward for going to the new colony, then kids raised on
those farms will learn how to run them hands-on.
2B^2
From: Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com>
> >Roads are incredibly expensive to build and maintain. Is there any
> I can envision GEV's for use as inter-city transport but within the
I already have fighters going overhead. :-) But I don't see that a
city per se is a necessity anyway. I'd be inclined to set up villages where
everything is in walking distance.
> Laserlight wrote:
> > >Roads are incredibly expensive to build and maintain. Is there any
No, I was thinking of conditions back on Earth - an excuse for sending
bodies away from an overcrowded home planet, see BuReloc in Pournelle's Sparta
series.
2B^2
> At 6:57 PM -0500 2/1/02, Laserlight wrote:
Yeah can't you see it.
"Come to the outer worlds. We'll find you something to do. You can come, dig
ditches, install vinyl siding, sanitize telephones and much much more. Just
call....."
> Ryan M Gill wrote:
You'd be surprised at how attractive that might sound, depending on how bad
things are back on Earth.
2B^2
> --- B Lin <lin@rxkinetix.com> wrote:
> pen/pencil/electronic stylus, clothing, shoes,
Side note: Practically all forms of eyesight problems either are curable or
will be soon. Eyeglasses aren't needed.
> drinking glasses, plates, oven/cooking/heating
Uh, that's assuming we're trying for a modern standard of living immediately.
Frontier societies tend to require less support.
> Paving a single lane road probably involves dozens
Sure. But there's an idea from Traveller I like--big
fusion engines on grav vehicles which vent plasma down. Fuses the surface into
a ceramic plate a couple inches thick. Lots faster and more durable.
> In addition, a population of 250,000 assuming 1st
My initial colonization teams would be about 80% young males. And I wouldn't
bring a quarter million in at
first. The next group--young females and young
couples. After that, we open it up to more demographic groups. The elderly are
not invited until
the colony is pretty stable--and only if they are
planning to contribute and have the skills to do so. Disabled are not invited
full stop. Colony will produce it's own disabled, we needn't import more.
> Education - assuming a low student to teacher ratio
Only if we use the fairly stupid modern models. There are better ways to do
things today, and will be more in the future. Already ranted on that subject.
> Infrastructure maintenance: City engineers, water
Depends--is the waste more valuable as fertilizer??
Is there central water and power, or lots of little
artesian wells and generators? Remember--resources
are going to be far more plentiful than they are today, with untapped water
tables, and crude petroleum bubbling to the surface in some places like it did
in the Middle Ages.
On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:27:09 -0800 "Brian Bilderback"
> <bbilderback@hotmail.com> writes:
A "politely decorated " Penal Colony.
A group too big to kill efficiently but too dangerous to let run loose.
(The PHR - People's Holy Republic - in my little backwater corner of the
universe.)
A group funded by a corporation to exploit some private colony world.
A "Vacation Planet" for the upper 1% of the nation.
Plague carriers, mutants, "Pilgrims" redux.
Gracias,
[quoted original message omitted]
[quoted original message omitted]
[quoted original message omitted]
> > Roads are incredibly expensive to build and maintain. Is there
Oh, sure, but if you're just putting in a colony, you don't necessarily have
to put your towns there.
> Fuel consumption ? How is the balance of that compared to wheeled
Fuel consumption now? Don't know. Fuel consumption is 200 years may
be a non-issue. <g> certailny our starships don't need space for
fuel...
[quoted original message omitted]
> "K.H.Ranitzsch" wrote:
> Water and sewage ? Depends on your assumptions about local
G'day,
> Think of how long it would take to generate enough
Assuming that terraforming etc even allow for this in the early years. Its all
too possible that even on colony worlds humans will actually clump together.
Look at Australia, almost the entire population is contained along the eastern
seaboard... its like when they settled they didn't the idea one bit and so
they stayed so close to the edge they nearly fell off again
;)
> The baby boom would draw some females out of the
That depends entirely on the work I'd say. I wasn't exactly upto major
lifting, but I was walking 2+km a day and working full time (OK on
computers, not tending fields) until the day before each of my kids was born.
Once they were born I was back at work after 2 weeks (mind you Derek is Mr Mum
and I was either at Uni or working from home like now).
> Emergency transport - ambulance service - probably could be
Unless of course some of the positions are done by volunteers in their "down
time" (then entire period covered between them), as is the case in rural
Tasmania.
Cheers
G'day,
> My initial colonization teams would be about 80% young
What's the logic behind this progression?
Just curious
[quoted original message omitted]
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Inherent sexism. I want guys to make the place marginally livable to start
with. And I want to not worry about taking care of children (read:
non-productive colonists) until I have a life support
system in place.
After that, they need dates and you start getting kids in.
G'day,
> Inherent sexism. I want guys to make the place
If that is the sole reason then you're mistakenly chopping off half your
viable work force. Women have been working side by side men in scientific
research stations for decades and have managed to avoid "the problem" if the
situation requires it - look at Antarctica for instance, there may not
be a 50:50 split there, but that's because women chose not to apply due to the
restrictions placed on them, not because they are barred in the first place.
Cheers
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> If that is the sole reason then you're mistakenly
Hrm... Could I find 10,000 women with that kind of
self-control? Possible, but I'd want to enforce it.
Maybe a 1- or 2-year contraceptive implant?
> I have read discussions of pregnancy in primitive societies and often
And
> no, don't ask me about the rates of miscarriages and the infant
The pregnancy situation is not good, but not so much of the work, as the lack
of technology. There bodies are conditioned to that level of extertion, so
there are fewer problems then you would expect, but when those problems occur,
they will be sever (without proper medical care). For a modern day example, I
have a couple of female friends who ride horses. They rode up to their last
two months, and resumed two weeks after giving birth.
> At 10:59 AM +1100 2/4/02, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
if the
> situation requires it - look at Antarctica for instance, there may not
Agreed. And if they are working as infantry and shipboard crewmen, then likely
that whole pregnant while on duty thing that makes so many old phartes
uncomfortable about people lacking Y chromosomes working in their old jobs.
> At 4:40 PM -0800 2/3/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Likey your problem would be an issue of controlling those men. Not the Women.
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Ryan Gill wrote:
> At 4:40 PM -0800 2/3/02, John Atkinson wrote:
I was just going to comment similarly...
Finding 10,000 MEN with 'that kind of self control' might be even more
difficult...:> So, stick the men with the contraceptive jab. It's our problem
too, gentlemen...
It's pretty well established in FTverse fluff and SG2 figure lines that
damn near all the militaries are fully co-ed. I can't see quasi-civilian
things like colonizing efforts being any different.
The one exception would be if you've got some sort of oddball
prison-planet/colonization effort going on. Personally, I can see better
things to do with habitable planets than use them as prisons. Stick the
convicts in asteroid habs, and let regular people do your colonizing.
> On 3-Feb-02 at 21:32, Brian Burger (yh728@victoria.tc.ca) wrote:
> The one exception would be if you've got some sort of oddball
A different kind of sentence. Put them in a dangerous environment that needs
minerals extracted. They are sentanced to produce X amount of mineral at which
point they are set free. Those with drive that could be an asset to society
get free sooner because they work hard. Those that are lazy (or stupid) never
return.
G'day Karl,
> I have read discussions of pregnancy in primitive societies
Considering we're talking about future colonies with a heap of tech in other
areas I would've assumed they had comparable levels of medical tech -
something the primitive societies didn't. I think that problem will be behind
them, at least in supported colonies.
Cheers
I don't want to sound unusually conservative, but it does cost quite a
bit of money to send people to hell-and-gone, keep them fed and healthy,
and have guards and ships trundling around picking up after them. Prisoners
might not be terribly motivated to produce, for a number of reasons, but you'd
have to send the oreships every month (or whatever) anyway. And protect them
when they got there. etc, etc.
I suspect it would be considerably cheaper to hire professional miners to
mine, and merely exile prisoners. Or kill them out of hand, depending on your
government's policy.
> Roger Books wrote:
> Finding 10,000 MEN with 'that kind of self control' might be even
Stick both--just in case.
> The one exception would be if you've got some sort of oddball
Hey! What're you implying, here? <grin>
G'day,
> Hrm. . . Could I find 10,000 women with that kind of
That's what you have to have to go on most long term Antarctic stuff. In the
past the rules were even stricter and (at least on British stations) you had
to have a hysterectomy. That's dedication to your science;)
G'day again,
> Hrm. . . Could I find 10,000 women with that kind of
Oh and I do notice it's the women who have to have the self-control ;)
;) ;)
G'day,
> The one exception would be if you've got some sort of oddball
Funnily enough in Australia's early days it was the dirth of women that held
things back. Despite popular myth very few Australians are descended from 1st
fleeters, because there were so few women. In the end they started having to
ship more women per load to bring production on line in Australia
- as the sentences were for 8 years and once free they had to have
something to do to keep them "honest" or the whole thing would topple;)
Cheers
On a related but quite different track, I would expect colonies to trace
descent through the mother, because the mother of a child is always easy to
determine at birth, while the father may not be. If the society is advanced
enough to have genetic tracking, and the society permits its use, this
wouldn't matter, but otherwise... Other people may, of course, have different
ideas, but I would imagine that babies get born out of wedlock rather more
often in colonial societies, and matriarchal lineage would make it a lot
easier to eliminate the possible social stigma of being a "fatherless child".
As far as which to implant, for a similar reason it is probably more effective
to implant the women, unless there are strict controls on new immigration (and
visits) to the planet. Shoreside visits by sailors could have serious
repercussions otherwise...
> Various people wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Laserlight wrote:
> > The one exception would be if you've got some sort of oddball
All implications about Alarishi are true until proven otherwise.:>
I mean, you let your lawyers have guns... (cf. Murphy & Co, legal experts &
pirates...<ahem>privateers...)
Why else would the Alarish be so anti-UN, if it weren't for all those
International Court rulings & subpeonas? <vbg>
Ducking for cover,
> At 11:51 AM +0900 2/4/02, Edward Lipsett wrote:
Heck that social stigma is almost gone even today. Its mosty an economic
issue.
> As far as which to implant, for a similar reason it is probably more
Likely those sailors have similar implants as those crews have women too.
> > Hey! What're you implying, here?
well, yeah, okay, but aside from that...
> I mean, you let your lawyers have guns
Almost nations let lawyers have guns--although the lawyers usually
hire someone else (police, internal revenue agents, etc) to operate them. We
let *everybody* have guns.
... (cf. Murphy & Co, legal experts
> & pirates...<ahem>privateers...)
Not "privateering", they call it "discrete executive services" instead.
Insofar as I can tell, that means they only go after specific targets, not
just whatever they happen to run across.
> Why else would the Alarish be so anti-UN, if it weren't for all
Aside from the fact that the UN ("Big Government, Getting Bigger") is
completely antithetical to everything Alarish stands for? No reason, really.
(We've already had one "Why the UN is an excusable/horrible idea" rant
lately, let's not go there again).
> John Atkinson wrote:
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> >Other people may, of
More often than what?
I'd always thought that empires in the expansion stage tended to be fairly
conservative about that kind of thing. For three examples, the early Romans,
Arab Conquest Moslems, and Genghid Mongols. I could
be wrong and I'm sure counter-examples would be easy to find (and
that's not to say everyone in a society conforms to the rules they say they
value). But in any event, it's easy to imagine colonial
True, a lot of social considerations here. In the American pioneering era,
however, having 8 or 15 siblings was not considered unusual.
Not a big issue, I must admit.
> Laserlight wrote:
> Laserlight wrote:
> I'd always thought that empires in the expansion stage tended to be
The Puritans were confined to a relatively small part of British colonial
America, and represented a relatively stable society centered around family
life, but children born out of wedlock weren't exactly uncommon at that. In
the remainder of the colonies (middle and southern) families tended to be the
exception rather than the rule, particularly in the earliest part of British
North American colonization, due in no small part to environmental and
economic factors which governed the settlement of those areas. What should be
remembered, however, is that British colonization was not at all unified, and
was haphazard at best. It wasn't until relatively late in the colonial period
that the British government bothered to take direct control of the colonies.
One other thing to consider is the type of people, regardless of what era
you're talking about, who tend to be out on the colonial frontier. Family life
tends to be the exception, as most of them are either restless wanderers or
running away from something, and those types are going to be far from
concerned about the mores of the society they've left behind. Also, it's
probably quite true that while earlier societies didn't *talk* about the
things that were going on, they were still happening much as they do today; we
as a society just tend to be more open about it.
[quoted original message omitted]
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Laserlight wrote:
> ... (cf. Murphy & Co, legal experts
So, really, really private privateering?:>
> > Why else would the Alarish be so anti-UN, if it weren't for all
Done - it was a pretty lame joke, anyway.
Later,
> On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 07:54:36AM +0100, K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:
> John Atkinson wrote:
Sure -- look in any large, modern university.
G'day guys,
> Karl wrote:
May be;)
> Roger wrote:
The nuture vs nature crowd may disagree on you with that one;)
Binhan added:
> Just give them permanent sterilzation after they've made
While I can see why you may want to do this from a genetic diversity
standpoint, just a couple of things spring to mind here...
a) I kinda like having kids myself and a tube seems a tad impersonal;) b)
based on today's tech its probably going to be a petrii dish;) c) based on the
problems confronting medical science over this issue its as likely as FTL that
we'll be growing babies in tubes or petrii dishes
> Besides by that point, cloning should be an accomplished
That may well be true (as might the genetic engineering you mentioned in
another post), but I think there will be a lot of social upheaval over that
(at least in some quarters) and it may not be as general as assumed. Though
it does allow for some cool scenario backgrounds. In my spin-off
GZGverse
future history I actually have what the non-participants call the "Clone
Wars" where a group who only reproduce by cloning have a "religious war" with
a group who routinely use genetic engineering to tailor children to the
colonies needs (including warrior castes etc)... both sides believe the
other's practices are abhorrent and beyond belief.
Cheers
Thank you, Binhan. All excellent points that arise from extending the
technology ust a tad further and thinking about what happens. And you're quite
correct, I think... this level of technology, used to any extent in society,
would probably invalidate a lot of the
lineage-related problems our current society has.
Excellent train of thought!
> B Lin wrote:
> --- B Lin <lin@rxkinetix.com> wrote:
Depends on the cultural background. I would suggest that getting that sort of
proposal through certain religious groups would be a bit difficult.
> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:
> > What's the logic behind this progression?
It's the only logically view--men _are_ expendable.
> John Atkinson wrote:
Expendable, or dispensible? There's a big difference.
2B^2
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >It's the only logically view--men _are_ expendable.
Depends on situation. Expendable when necessarily. Dispensible entirely? I'm
not the Radical Lesbian Collective here. But I do believe that any society not
basically founded on "Women and Children First" is going to be in a bad way in
event of a crisis.
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> G'day,
Its
> all too possible that even on colony worlds humans will actually clump
Based on what I've been reading about y'all's wildlife, being within running
distance of a ship doesn't sound like such a bad idea.
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Women get pregnant. Guys can do whatever they please without dropping out of
the work force. That's not sexism, that's biology 101.
> --- Brian Burger <yh728@victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
> It's pretty well established in FTverse fluff and
All _canonical_ militaries.
G'day,
> Women get pregnant. Guys can do whatever they please
1) I just love the way so many young men have the opinion women manage to get
pregnant by themselves.... I can assure you they're missing out on a LOT of
fun by subscribing to this opinion;)
2) VD can be a killer on the workforce;P
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:17:31 -0700 "B Lin" <lin@rxkinetix.com> writes:
Assuming the colony doesn't have mores or paranoia against the practice.
> Besides by that point, cloning should be an accomplished technology
"Should"... maybe yes, maybe no.
Gracias,
> John Atkinson wrote:
(But someone else will need to respond to my reply)
> > >It's the only logically view--men _are_ expendable.
Women and children first sounds more like men being expendable, not
dispensible.
2B^2
Well, you could also argue that there would be religous groups who think FTL
travel is evil or that fusion plants are evil since they emulate the sun. We
still game as if FTL exists and is common.
I don't see that having complete genomic data on someone is any
different than a comprehensive ID card/chip with all your pertinent
information - hair color, eye color, weight, skin color, shoe size. It
would be in fact better since it's harder to fake your genes than it is to
change your hair color.
Look at the current debate on a US National ID card with a smart chip that
might include stuff like your medical history, allergies, criminal record, tax
record etc all on file.
Totalitarian governments or Dictatorships would love to have that kind of
information on tap to track the movements, actions and wherabouts of
dissidents. Who is to say that the future doesn't have totalitarian
governments?
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> G'day,
<snicker> Did John see this before he went off to blow up scorpions, I wonder?
> 2) VD can be a killer on the workforce ;P
Public health is obviously going to be a biggie on colonial missions, esp.
the early setting-up missions. Really, really thorough medical checks
are
going to be a part of everyone's pre-departure screening, and PUblic
Health Officers or the equiv. are going to be second only to actual Law
Enforcement types once your on the ground.
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
...
> Women and children first sounds more like men being
Applied to the IF the concept takes on a new meaning!!! "Combat Engineers, we
don't need no stinking Combat
Engineers", to para-phrase an old movie.
> > Women and children first sounds more like men being
John Leary said:
> Applied to the IF the concept takes on a new
> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
Well, sick kid, working at school, upset wife, ect., you know that life
thing!!!
Bye for now,