I guess I believe that when you meld a number of major countries together that
they are not going to adapt one country's national anthem for their own. Why
would Italy or Spain want to start signing "Le Marsialles"? (Don't get me
wrong I love that song). Why the hell would Americans or Canadians want "God
Save the Queen"? (Unless it's the Sex Pistols version). I'd imagiune that tey
woudl adpot some new theme. Same for awards.
> Los wrote:
> I guess I believe that when you meld a number of major countries
(Don't
Verdi's Hymn of the Nations would make a good starting point, it's got Le
Marsialles and some Italian stuff (and God Save the Queen, but that can be
edited out). The revisions would, of course, be done by a French composer.
> get me wrong I love that song). Why the hell would Americans or
Yeah, but the US got annexed by the Brits. We likely weren't in much of a
condition to argue about finicky details. Hell, half the Brits want to get rid
of their monarchy, why would we want it? And yet it's still there (Please tell
me there was some horriffic accident that put the throne in the hands of a
different branch of the family, this one has about had it).
(Subject Change) How does the official history do Greece? In my history it
reluctantly stayed with the FSE (French armored divisions in Athens had
something to do with the decision). The religious, cultural, and other
differences tend to cause friction. The NRE formally lays claim to Greece (and
Anatolia, Thrace, etc, but who's counting?) and is actively working to take it
back. There is a small but vicious terror group, plus a more moderate
political party (banned, of course, but very popular) both bankrolled by the
Rhomaioi Ministry of Barbarians. Eventually there
will be a flat-out open war between the NRE and the FSE, and the NRE
isn't above coordinating the death blows with the NSL. The NRE has specific
territorial interests, which largely don't concern areas the NSL is interested
in.
And Re: Orthodox vs Catholic--in my background religion plays a very
prominent part, it's part and parcel of basing it on the 11th century.
No purges or auto-da-fes, but the Pope and the FSE have a very cozy
relationship, the Romanovs have their pet Patriarch of Moscow in Exile (Not to
be confused with the Patriarch of Moscow which is the puppet of the Communist
Party in Moscow, nor with the Patriarch of Moscow recognized by the Ecumenical
Patriarch of New Rome), etc., and of course the IF has more than a few mullahs
involved in their politics. The New Roman Empire, of course, has an entire
Orthodox hierarchy, to the extent of being recognized by various branches of
the Church on Terra (and in other places, forming a "shadow heirarchy" where a
puppet church is
supported by the government--primarily the RH, ESU, and to a certain
extent the FSE). I realize this doesn't fit in with many people's view
of the future, but any self-respecting Rhomaioi force has at least
Chi-Rhos painted on the ships and screams "Dues Nobiscum" as it charges
forward. The really nifty Rhomaioi forces have the Virgin Mary painted on, but
not at the scale I'm dealing with. One of these days, I'm going to sit down
with an FSE Superdreadnought mini...
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Los wrote:
unlike the europeans in the fse (and see my earlier remark re 'ode to
joy' being the current, anational, euro-tune), the yanks don't really
get a choice in this matter. anyway, god save the queen is the commonwealth
anthem, and canada is still in that.
Tom
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, John M. Atkinson wrote:
> No purges or auto-da-fes, but the Pope and the FSE have a very cozy
and, of course, the New Anglian Commonwealth has the New Anglian Church (the
archbishop of canterbury sent a few divisions over and 'converted' the
baptists...).
Tom
The Americans can sing "the Royal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen" instead.:) It's the
same tune.
> At 02:24 PM 10/22/98 +0100, you wrote:
Besides, didn't we take the tune and rewrite the words to produce one of our
own patriotic songs ("My Country Tis of Thee") over here?
Might it not be safe to assume that the NAC might use the same music with
different words which provide more common ground?
Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> I guess I believe that when you meld a number of major countries
(Don't
> get me wrong I love that song). Why the hell would Americans or
As a historical aside, we Canucks still sing GSTQ at lots of things. Heck we
can't even fix on one set of words for our national anthem (I liked the old
ones better). Hangovers from British dominance. But if the modern day was any
guide, we'd be singing the theme song to Baywatch as an hommage to American
cultural dominance.
I don't believe you are entirely right about awards (you may be right about
anthems). I rather suspect the military (being a traditionalist
beastie) would want to maintain traditional decorations - it has too
much to do with esprit de corps, unit history, etc. Now, new decorations would
be introduced, but I still think old ones would be important. I don't think,
with the NAC being run by a formerly British Royalty, that the VC is in any
doubt.
And I have to admit... I like the idea of the ESU giving out the Order of the
Solar Union, the Banner of the Solar Union, etc.
And if you think their are new decorations, suggest some names and
descriptions! I'm game to listen....
/************************************************
John spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Yeah, but the US got annexed by the Brits. We likely weren't in much
Maybe Beth's comments about Genetic Engineering should be extended Here:
NAC - Uses Gene Engineering to Improve Marketability of Royals by
installing Backbone....and Re-integrating Dignity and Sans Reproche
(Maybe another NSL infusion is required....)
(For the Brits present, I'm just teasing. My oath (when I joined the Canadian
Military) was (strange as it may seem) to the Queen, not the PM.)
> (Subject Change)
Um.... wouldn't the Nea Rhomanaioi come up with something less obviously
insulting like the Ministry of UnderDeveloped and Oppressed Peoples? (grin)
> And Re: Orthodox vs Catholic--in my background religion plays a very
> No purges or auto-da-fes, but the Pope and the FSE have a very cozy
As an aside, current day South America is loaded with Catholics. When LLAR
left earth, if they took a big portion of that Catholic mass, the LLAR is a
powerful force for their chosen head of religion.... an
off-earth power base to be sure.
Tom.
/************************************************
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:01:11 Los wrote:
(Don't
> get me wrong I love that song). Why the hell would Americans or
Actually, I would tend to think it would depend on how the various superpowers
were formed. In the case of the NAC, given that the US was
more or less 're-colonized' to due the breakdown of martial law, and
appointed with a Lord Governor, it makes perfect sense that the NAC
anthem would remain God Save the King. I imagine that Free Cal-Tex may
well still use the Star Spangled Banner as they probably consider themselves
what's left of the 'real' USA, rather than a whole new nation. Then again, you
never can tell with those Texans.:) I somehow still can't see California and
Texas forming a union (maybe Texas and
*northern* California). I could also see Cal-Tex annexing enough of
northern Mexico to form a contiguous country... but I digress.
In an interesting real-life note on the subject of anthems, in this
year's German Unity Day celebration, the province of Bavaria threatened to
pull out of the festivities as the theme for the event contained componenets
of the old East German state song. This was on CNN online a few weeks back...
I never did hear how it was resolved.
Just out of curiosity, does the EU have an anthem?
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Jim 'Jiji' Foster / jfoster@nospam.kansas.net / Jiji @ AnimeMUCK
> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:28:32 Thomas Anderson wrote:
Who have since sought political asylum in Texas. Actually, I'd think it would
be kind of tough to nationalize American religion... there are something like
6,000 different sects of Protestant Christianity alone at last count... and
who knows what else.
Granted, a lot of those would fade out if serious persecution was arranged,
and I'm sure if there was a national church, political flunkies would flock to
it. Frankly, thought, I think the national religion of the US is going to
remain gold & guns.
We got your prophet motive right here, bubba...;)
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> John M. Atkinson wrote:
> Yeah, but the US got annexed by the Brits. We likely weren't in much
However it even says in the FB that they made concessions to accomodate otehr
countries such as dropping "HMS" for "RMS". In fact it doesn't say anything in
teh rule book about being "Annexed" it just says all three united under the
crown. Culd just be word lay though.
> (Subject Change)
Just happen to have my FT book with me at work and so no mention. I say go for
it.
> of being recognized by various branches of the Church on Terra (and in
Why wouldn't it? You've created a plausible government and military out of a
vacuum. There is there's no mention that whole region in the rulebook. As far
as I'm concerned it's part of the Universe...
Speaking of religion and such things. Where exactly in the political setup is
that island off the coast of Scotland- Ireland. N. Ireland is presumably
still in the U.K. and therefore part of the N.A.C. But who if anybody did the
Repulic join? Did they see the error of their ways and enter the N.A.C. or did
> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Thomas Anderson wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, John M. Atkinson wrote:
"How many divisions has the Archbishop?", to misquote Uncle Joe...
Sorry, wildly OT, my history classes are melting my brain.
Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Maybe they joined the NSL just to piss off the NAC. Better still
Or Tir Na Nog or some such. Part of the Free Celtic League. (Someone already
suggested such a place). I think a place for expatriate
Scots, Irish, and Welsh - a haven for Gaels, Celts, Picts, and the
like - is a neat idea. But probably they've just been economically
assimilated by the NAC.
/************************************************
> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
the NAC have the Charles Crescent for 'conspicuous responsibility towards
the built and natural environment whilst under fire' :-).
not to mention the Parham Star, named for the general who called the crown
back in to restore order. i bet they loooved him. i think that's the right
name, anyway. it's given to quislings and other foreign nationals who have
done the crown a great service.
Tom
> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Jim 'Jiji' Foster wrote:
well, as i've said a few times (one of the problems with saying a lot is that
people, quite rightly, stop listening; if only the government were run by
mailing list...), i think we do (shock! and englishmen who says 'we' when
referring to europeans!), and i think it's 'ode to joy', out of 'die hard'.
could someone else confirm this or am i just losing it yet again?
Tom
Brian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> > and, of course, the New Anglian Commonwealth has the New Anglian
My last post for the day (someone else should get a chance to speak....).
Reminds me of a game (PBEM) advertised in old dragon magazines. The picture
was of a BB firing a city with beam batteries. The caption read "In 2183,
Excommunication is a Harsh Punishment". Don't remember anything else, but the
image of religious zealouts
backed by hi-tech weapons of genocide had me thinking....
Tom.
/************************************************
> The cat that walks by Himself wrote:
> Speaking of religion and such things. Where exactly in the political
Maybe they joined the NSL just to piss off the NAC. Better still maybe they
just packed up and left altogether. Now living on the planet Eire.
> Thomas Anderson wrote:
> [EU has an anthem...] and i think it's 'ode to joy', out of
Yes, it is "Ode to Joy". No, it isn't "out of" "Die Hard", even though it was
used in the movie music... the music was written almost two centuries
earlier :-/ Beethoven's 9th symphony.
> At 09:35 AM 10/22/98 -0700, Jim wrote:
I still like the idea of Low Cal Tex-Mex, but that's an even further
digression....
> John M. Atkinson wrote:
> Some people don't like the idea of a major religion (especially
That's strikes me as ridiculous. Haven't they heard of the Islamic Federation?
> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, John M. Atkinson wrote:
> Nope. There was one other nation great enough to treat with God's
Was that before or after the battle of the Yarmuk and losing a third of the
Roman Empire?
> Chen-Song Qin wrote:
Anyone wanna send me the lyrics for that (probably off-list)
> Los wrote:
> > other places, forming a "shadow heirarchy" where a puppet church is
Some people don't like the idea of a major religion (especially Christianity
in any of its forms) being a major player in future politics. And I'm not
going to get into an argument over the whys or wherefors.
> Jim 'Jiji' Foster wrote:
> In an interesting real-life note on the subject of anthems, in this
Bavaria, the Texas of Europe. Scratch a Bavarian and you'll find a
Monarchist. And NOT pro-Kaiser, either.
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> > bankrolled by the Rhomaioi Ministry of Barbarians. Eventually there
> Um.... wouldn't the Nea Rhomanaioi come up with something less
Nope. There was one other nation great enough to treat with God's
Vice-Regent on Earth (now God's Vice-Regent among the Stars) as an
equal, and that was put paid to by Heraclius. All others are benighted
barbarians who will someday be brought back into the loving arms of the
Empire.
> As an aside, current day South America is loaded with Catholics. When
But the Pope is kinda tied to Rome. The Orthodox permit new Patriarchs to be
created and for patriarchs to change in importance. The Patriarch
of Constantinople is now considered to be the second-highest ranking
Churchman, after the Patriarch of New Rome. For an example of this in history,
where the Bishop of Constantinople was elevated to a Patriarch, and then to
the senior Patriarch due to the City's importance in the Empire. The Pope's
authority is tied to being Bishop of Rome.
Off-planet is good, but it would take extreme circumstances to get the
authority of the Latin Church transferred off-planet. Or the Latins
could always hold another schism. Wouldn't that be a joy?
Chen-Song Qin asked:
> > Nope. There was one other nation great enough to treat with God's
A few years before. The Arabs were nothing but desert barbarians anyway
<g>
Indeed, had it not been for the long, wasting war between Heraclius and
Chosroes (II, I think) the Arabs would've had a *much* harder time to get
out of their deserts at all :-/
Regards,
> Thomas Anderson wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Los wrote:
(Don't
> > get me wrong I love that song). Why the hell would Americans or
<and add in the conversion of the Baptists to the Anglician Church!>
Hehehehehehe!! You poor Brits have no clue what you have done! The Second
Seccessionist War was actually a very clever American ploy to absorb Britian
and Canada!;)
Ya'll intervined and 'forced' the U.S. to join the Confederation (
Confederation!! D'OH!) under the monarch of the U.K.... no problem! We get the
King every few months (tourist dollars), plus we get to fill Parliament with
American MPs. Ever notice how the last several PMs have been Neo-Torys
with Southern accents???;) LOL!! Next time you hear a fellow Confederate
(!)
singing "God Save the King", you might want to listen closer... he might be
singing "America the Beautiful!" LOL!! A win/win prospect for us : )
> Thomas Anderson wrote: anyway, god save the queen is the
By the way, is our sovereign (as of 2183) a King or a Queen???? Kinda
important to know because we here in the South always start a football game
(NOT Soccer!!;) with a good "America th..." OOOPS!!! Errrrr.... ErrHummm....
"God Save the King"... might be embarassing if we have a Queen!!;)
can we stop this one before the weekend deluge
thanks
LOL! My bad, make the song: "My country tis of thee..";) Hey, what do you
expect??? I'm in college!!
<can hear Brits muttering under their breaths something about the American
education establishment! LOL!!>
Randall spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Hehehehehehe!! You poor Brits have no clue what you have done! The
Actually, it was a Canadian ploy to absorb both as the "Power Behind The
Throne".
> Ya'll intervined and 'forced' the U.S. to join the Confederation (
We get the
> King every few months (tourist dollars), plus we get to fill
Did you notice that the King's Advisors have "quaint" Canadian accents? And
how many senior civil servants (the real power in gov't) come from Canada?
Think Yes, Minister only with Hacker as a Yank and Humphrey and his pals as
Canadians. Yes, Laughing indeed. Only quietly, in very dark little corners....
Next time you hear a fellow Confederate (!)
> singing "God Save the King", you might want to listen closer... he
I think you'd find that it is actually Oh, Canada! or the theme from Great
White North. And you'll certainly find the new NAC flag features a maple leaf
on it...
(I was thinking it might be a union jack (with all the crosses, since it looks
like the Irish Republic has been absorbed), but with the top left quadrant
replaced by a dark blue field with 5x (depending on whether US offworld
holdings had state status at the time of being absorbed) small white stars and
one rather larger (since there i only
one) white-outlined red maple leaf centered in that panel.
Tom.
/************************************************
> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Randall Case wrongly wrote:
(Don't
> > > get me wrong I love that song). Why the hell would Americans or
<not-serious>
if anthing, it was a canadian ploy; these people, seemingly so innocent and
goodwilled, are in fact a nation of insane megalomaniacs who will stop at
nothing to absorb the rest of the world into their evil pluralist federation!
> Ya'll intervined and 'forced' the U.S. to join the Confederation (
hmm. 'commonwealth', surely?
> under the monarch of the U.K.... no problem! We get the
and, of course, the american constituencies are ten times larger than the
british ones,and so return half as many mps, and there are property
qualifications for full citizenship for american-born subjects.
> Ever notice how the last several PMs have been Neo-Torys with
yes, but southern = devon. even scarier.
> LOL!! Next time you hear a fellow Confederate (!)
this will be because, being a colonial (aussies, canuks and other veteran
colonials exempted), he is a tone-deaf fool and cannot determine which
song is playing! as evidence, i call meatloaf to the stand.
by far the scariest thing is the Anglian in NAC. the adjective for britain is
british or britannic, and for england is england. anglian really means that
bit between, roughly, cambridge and the channel, north to the wash and south
to london, wherein one can find those wonderful counties of essex and norfolk.
the idea of these people wandering about in battleships ruling a good chunk of
outer space sends shivers down the spine...
</not-serious>
Tom
> Chen-Song Qin wrote:
Heraclius whacked the Persians, the Arabs finished it off then snagged Egypt
and Syria, and by then Heraclius was already dying and wasn't up to throwing
the bastards out, and the world would not see a leader and general of his
magnitute until the Armenian dynasty produced the three greatest generals of
the Middle Ages (After whom I've named my Heavy Tanks). But the King of Kings
of the Persians was the only leader really recognized as the Roman Emperor's
equal. Which is why the Romans finally adopted the title Basileus. As long as
there was any other leader out there who could claim Basileus in right then
they wouldn't touch it.
> Los wrote:
> That's strikes me as ridiculous. Haven't they heard of the Islamic
But Islam is an Artifact of Native Culture where Christianity is Patriarchal
Religionism. Less Politically Correct. The EPFC would object.
Why mutter under our breaths? Have no fear once you colonials rejoin the
Empire we`ll sort your education system out for you.
> Randall Case wrote:
> LOL! My bad, make the song: "My country tis of thee.." ; ) Hey, what
> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
nac contains south america; 'the true north strong and free' may not sit so
well.
> Great White North. And you'll certainly find the new NAC flag
i was wondering about the nac flag too. i sort of assume that within the
commonwealth, the component nations (england, scotland, wales,
ulster/ireland, canada and america) have their own flags as now, the us
flag being modified by the replacement of the starry quadrant with a union
jack, of course, and that there is also a commonwealth flag; i don't know that
this would necessarily be the union jack. it might be based on the royal coat
of arms, which is roughly as follows:
the flag/shield/logo/startup screen is split into quarters, the top left
and bottom right being three yellow lions on red (england), the top right
being a red lion standing up in a box on yellow (scotland), and the bottom
being a yellow harp on blue (ireland).
a simpified form of this, suitable for a non-denominational, in-touch,
pluralist monarchy as that of 2160 is (un)likely to be, would be to
simplify lions to horizontal bars, the lion-in-a-box to a hollow square,
and the harp to a quarter-circle, concave side pointing northeast. this
is the logo i've used for nac ships when i've needed one, and it looks quite
smart.
it's ascii art time:
#############################################
# # #
# ############### # ############### #
# # # # #
# ############### # # # #
# # # # #
# ############### # ############### #
# # #
#############################################
# # #
# # # ############### #
# # # #
# ## # ############### #
# ##### # #
# ####### # ############### #
# # #
#############################################
circular and shield-shaped forms should be easily derivable.
that curve didn't come out to well, but when you've only got five rows to play
with it's not easy.
Tom
Thomas spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> <not-serious>
> if anthing, it was a canadian ploy; these people, seemingly so
Mr.Mauve, It seems this Thomas character has learned of our plans. He must be
dealt with.
Yes, Sir. I'll send a squad of the RCMP out to pepper spray and billy club
him. We can't do that? Oh yes, only protesters. Hmm. All right, we'll send
Lucien Bouchard over to convince him that not all Canadians believe in
pluralism.... maybe that will throw him off the
scent....
> > under the monarch of the U.K.... no problem! We get the
And you'll never find an American (except maybe someone from New England) in
the House of Lords.
> </not-serious>
/************************************************
As an ulgy American, I thought that NAC would be poltical domaninced
by the UK-controlled "United Parliment" and Prime Minster. Northern
American Member states would have its own Senate and Houses of Reprenstives
for regional concens. Former LLAR states would have fewer rights and more
oversight. In conflicts bewteen different groups either Brits Parilment or The
Crown would final responiblity and say.<Rule of Sumpracy>. Cutural I think
America would be the major force to reckon with by total population alone. I
think a few American would buy into House of Lord for prestiage involved.
As an ulgy American, I thought that NAC would be poltical domaninced by the
Brits' Parliment and Prime Minster. Northern American Member states would have
its own Senate and Houses of Reprenstives for regional concens. Former LLAR
states would have fewer rights and greater oversight than former USA due to
being to conquered states. In terms of culture, the'ld USA would control the
HolTV channels and other forms of Pop culture. Serious art would be tough
guess.
> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Rick Norman wrote:
i'm not sure that the us would remain a single political entity under the
crown, as it would have too much powr; i can see it being broken down into
units of about five states each (New England, Greater Florida, Southern
British Columbia, etc), each of which is on roughly equal terms with britain
and canada, each having a governor, and asssembly and sending a small number
of people to parliament. divide and conquer.
Tom
> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Rick Norman wrote:
you have forgotten the BBC - with another 300 million licence payers
under its belt, it would be able to put out some seriously heavyweight
programming. even now, the bbc produces a good fraction of the
english-speaking world's quality tv, and a state-run broadcaster would
be instrumental in controlling the colonies ("and now on BBC America, the
"I
Love the King Show!"). american-run tv companies would have been shut
down
in/after the war, so the bbc would have had a big monopoly for a long
time. one channel and everything's on...
Tom
> On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Thomas Anderson wrote:
> programming. even now, the bbc produces a good fraction of the
Yes, but "quality TV" would exclude all non-PBS American TV. :)
> instrumental in controlling the colonies ("and now on BBC America, the
Americans probably would wind up watching a lot less TV. On a similar note,
how does the Internet (and its offspring(s)) fit into the FT universe? What
kind of role would hackers have in military operations?
> Chen-Song Qin wrote:
> Yes, but "quality TV" would exclude all non-PBS American TV. :)
That's hereticly close to an anti-B5 statement....
> On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Los wrote:
> Chen-Song Qin wrote:
All right, all non-PBS American TV except for Babylon 5 and Ally McBeal.
> Chen-Song Qin wrote:
Oh, I'll admit most American TV is no "Piss Christ."
Hoorah for pseudo-erudition.
Thomas spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> i was wondering about the nac flag too. i sort of assume that within
I like the idea for the us flag.
> a simpified form of this, suitable for a non-denominational, in-touch,
this is
> the logo i've used for nac ships when i've needed one, and it looks
I think I like the figures.... and I think one of the english panes should be
something american.... like an eagle in silver on a red and white striped
background....
Or maybe just something simple, that acknowledges that it is impossible to
represent the US, Canada, Rep of Quebec, Ireland, Scotland, N Ireland, Wales,
England, Mexico, and all of South America within one flag. Maybe just a Gold
Crown on a Red Field. Then in each country, a figure is placed under the crown
to indicate 'under the protection of the crown'. In Canada, a maple leaf. In
USA, an eagle. In Ireland, a Harp. In Wales, something
stolen from someone (okay, just kidding - really!). In Scotland, a
Lion. In England, nothing. In South America, whatever symbols would be
appropriate. In Quebec, a Fleur De Lis.
And commonwealth vessels would display the Gold-Crown-On-Red flag of
the Commonwealth and this would be the shoulder flashes of NAC forces.
Tom.
/************************************************