This question came up while we were playing a WW II scenario using Stargrunt.
When calling in off-table artillery, it says the FO or
whoever is calling in the strike must have LOS to the impact point.
How do you guys feel about calling in an arty strike on a location where the
player "knows" where the enemy is, such as inside a forest, but where the
figure calling in the strike shouldn't have that good a guess about it?
For instance, in our game, the Americans know the Germans have a platoon
command squad on the edge of a heavy forest. The Germans then back up from the
edge and move through the forest to a position near another edge, but still
inside the forest.
The American player called in an arty strike on the spot at the edge of the
forest closest to the German squad, knowing that it would get some of the
squad members if it hit.
> On Tue, 01 August 2000, Kevin Balentine wrote:
> When calling in off-table artillery, it says the FO or
Correct.
> How do you guys feel about calling in an arty strike
It gets a little hairier, actually. On page 12, under the cover rules, it is
implied that the player can actually target the woods, not just the edge of
the woods. The artillery rules require a line of sight (LOS) to the impact
point but the cover rules imply that if you can spot a woods, you can target
the woods themselves. I would allow, if I was a referee, a player to target
the centre of any woods within LOS, any spot within LOS of the unit.
But your question is more subtle: can a player use up an artillery strike on a
set of woods knowing that a unit is in the woods, even if the unit can't be
spotted.
The way the rules are worded, it's perfectly legal. For instance, the American
unit engages some Germans. The Germans pull back, the Americans pull back and
then order an attack on the woods. You could argue that the Americans have a
pretty good guesstimate that the Germans are still in the woods. Or, perhaps
they can hear the Germans tromping through the woods.
If you want to avoid this, here's a house rule. Once a unit has disappeared
into woods, it goes back into hiding. This is against the rule that prevents
units from being hidden once they are activated, but you could easily allow it
in your own games. Once out of LOS, at the end of that turn, the unit gains,
say, 2 dummy markers. Then, each dummy marker can be activated like a unit. As
long as it stays out of LOS, the unit is hidden and the dummy markers stay on
the board and can move around. Note, this also breaks the rule that states a
unit is no longer hidden after it moves.
The Stargrunt spotting rules are pretty basic. They don't handle going back
into hiding, or what happens when LOS is lost. As such, the situation you
describe is legal, even though the firing player knows where a unit is
located, even if the unit is no longer in LOS. Is it realistic? That's harder
to argue. American units were pretty artillery happy (definitely in the
Vietnam War, but even in WW2). I could see the American player arguing that it
is VERY realistic.
Of course, now I have to wonder a couple of other things: what size artillery
was coming down on the Germans? If we're talking company level artillery, it's
probably mortar support if it only took 1 turn of "incoming" on the inbound
box. It wouldn't be hard to believe that an American unit would use a mortar
barrage on a line of woods that could still have Germans in it. If it was in
box 2 or 3, due to being higher level support from battalion or regimental
assets, it would have been harder to call in. If it was box 2 or 3, what the
heck were the Germans doing hanging around the woods for a turn or two with
artillery inbound?
You see, this is the other thing. A player could argue, "There were
units in the woods/buildings/whatever. The woods/buildings/whatever are
strategic. It's perfectly logical to assume they are still in there! I'm not
going back in without an artillery strike."
One last suggestion. If I was refereeing, and wanted it a bit more realistic,
I'd pull the player aside and say, "Okay, here's the scoop. You know the
Germans are in there. We can see them. Your units, though, can not. So, you
have to decide RIGHT NOW how many barrages you're going to call down on the
woods until you can get troops in there to see if it was cleared out. Tell me
right now how many "clean hits" you want on the woods." Then, I'd have him
call in the strikes. If he says, "One," then that's all I'd allow from him
even if it meant no casualties. If he says, "Five," I'd force him to call in
five artillery strikes, even if the first one wipes out the German unit.
That's the advantage of playing a scenario with a referee. If, however, there
is no ref, I'd suggest just playing as the rules allow and realize you give up
a little realism for some playability.
Good points, all, and I like the suggested house rules.
I'll have to try those out next time we play. We usually use a referee in our
games, so we'll give it a shot.
BTW, it was company level mortars.
> --- agoodall@canada.com wrote:
If it was DS2 I would limit the artillery to Harrasising Fire (i.e. no
casualties, just underfire [suppression] markers). I don't know what (if any)
is the equivilent in SG2.
Using the above, no, you could not take out the unit with artillery while in
the woods, but you could pin it down to let you get in range for your close
assault. (Artillery softens resistance and disrupts the enemy, Infantry take
and hold land).
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
-----
> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
> But your question is more subtle: can a player use up an artillery
[snip]
> Is it realistic? That's harder to argue. American units were pretty
[snip]
> One last suggestion. If I was refereeing, and wanted it a bit more
You
> know the Germans are in there. We can see them. Your units, though,
then
> that's all I'd allow from him even if it meant no casualties. If he