Arabic Empire in space was: Re: NSL, Not Nazis.

If you are looking for other old empires in space you can check out the Dune
books, by Frank Herbert, they have an Arabic empire in space, no fleet battles
tho, but come very interesting ground combat.
-Stephen

> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 DracSpy@aol.com wrote:

> If you are looking for other old empires in space you can check out

well, kinda. in the film, they're italian renaissance, and there are little
bits and bobs pinched from all over the shop anyway. still, that's sf.
everyone should read at least one of the dune books, in the same way
that they should read at least one shakespeare play - you may not like
it, but this is one of the classics of your culture.

Tom

In a message dated 99-02-03 13:28:30 EST, you write:

<< well, kinda. in the film, they're italian renaissance, and there are little
bits and bobs pinched from all over the shop anyway. still, that's sf.
everyone should read at least one of the dune books, in the same way
 that they should read at least one shakespeare play - you may not like
it, but this is one of the classics of your culture.

Tom >> I agree, I'm reading book three, for my lit class you could choose any
set of books to read for part of it, I got into the Dune books and I realy
like them. I wonder how you would set up the personal shield from the book in
SG2 or DS2, just don't use laser cannons...
-Stephen

> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999 DracSpy@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-02-03 13:28:30 EST, you write:

or any sort of kinetic weapon - the shields stop any sort of fast-moving
object, such as rounds from massdrivers, hkps, or any other sort of gun in
ds2. i'm not sure how DFFGs would be affected. basically, the screen in
dune kills all ranged combat - it's a plot device to justify soldiers as
hand-to-hand fighters.

however, one thing that did occur to me was this. the book describes the
interaction of screen and laser: if a laser beam cuts a screen, there is a
good chance both laser generator and screen generator will be destroyed. the
trick is to use disposable lasers.

excimer lasers, which use a chemical reaction to produce the beam, already
exist. all you'd have to do is make a one-shot version, and when you
wanted to fire it, blast it away from you (like firing a missile) and have
it fire. bang - target and disposable laser obliterated. it wouldn't be
that expensive, as you'd be mass-producing them, and they would only be
built to fire once.

alternatively, shoot the laser round from a gun, and have it produce the beam
just before it hits the screen. thus, the explosive effect at both ends is
concentrated in the region of the target.

why had no-one thought of this in the books? i suppose frank herbert
just wasn't a hard sf kind of guy.

the other thing is that big screens are unstable, so you couldn't protect
tanks. another justification for having armies of blade-armed infantry.

Tom

> Thomas Anderson wrote:

> however, one thing that did occur to me was this. the book describes

Actually, you always have an explosion of some power at both ends. Sometimes
just the laser and screen generators are wrecked, sometimes the reaction is
mistaken for usage of the House Atomics. That would
make _me_ real hesitant to be the bloke pulling the trigger, no?

> On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, John M. Atkinson wrote:

> Thomas Anderson wrote:

the fact that the explosion is at both ends is not a problem, as the laser
end is a one-shot expendable anyway - think nuke-pumped x-ray lasers.
the
real obstacle is the random variability of the effect - the minimum is
that the shield is knocked down, the maximum is that you nuke the other side.

given the former case, it would be sensible to use disposable lasers as an
opening weapon, and follow up with kinetics against the now unshielded
targets.

given the latter effect, erm, take *really* good body armour? if you could
deploy the lasers as drones (like the suspensorlift assassination knife that
the harkonnens send against paul when he arrives at the palace) then you would
be able to minimise the blowback; even if the laser went nuclear, it would be
on the other side of the battlefield and you wouldn't mind so much.

and, yes, the political implications are pretty hairy too.

however, i bet if scientists looked into it, they could figure out some way to
make it more reliable. except, of course, the dune universe seems to be a bit
light on scientists. they were probably done away with along
with computers. damn, i hate that future history :-).

> That would

Tom

In a message dated 99-02-04 07:07:02 EST, you write:

<< or any sort of kinetic weapon - the shields stop any sort of
fast-moving
object, such as rounds from massdrivers, hkps, or any other sort of gun in
ds2. i'm not sure how DFFGs would be affected. basically, the screen in
 dune kills all ranged combat - it's a plot device to justify soldiers
as
 hand-to-hand fighters.

however, one thing that did occur to me was this. the book describes the
interaction of screen and laser: if a laser beam cuts a screen, there is a
good chance both laser generator and screen generator will be destroyed. the
trick is to use disposable lasers.

excimer lasers, which use a chemical reaction to produce the beam, already
 exist. all you'd have to do is make a one-shot version, and when you
wanted to fire it, blast it away from you (like firing a missile) and have
 it fire. bang - target and disposable laser obliterated. it wouldn't be
 that expensive, as you'd be mass-producing them, and they would only be
built to fire once.

alternatively, shoot the laser round from a gun, and have it produce the beam
just before it hits the screen. thus, the explosive effect at both ends is
concentrated in the region of the target.

 why had no-one thought of this in the books? i suppose frank herbert
just wasn't a hard sf kind of guy.

the other thing is that big screens are unstable, so you couldn't protect
 tanks. another justification for having armies of blade-armed infantry.

Tom >> The book is not about fighting, there are very few tanks in the book
(if any) The worms realy like the Screen Generators, what would there stats
be?
-Stephen

In a message dated 99-02-04 08:14:25 EST, you write:

<< given the latter effect, erm, take *really* good body armour? if you could
deploy the lasers as drones (like the suspensorlift assassination knife that
the harkonnens send against paul when he arrives at the palace) then you would
be able to minimise the blowback; even if the laser went nuclear, it would be
on the other side of the battlefield and you wouldn't mind so much. >> The
drones move slow enuff that you don't need a laser, if I recall corectaly they
buro into your flesh and rip it apart.
-Stephen

> On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 DracSpy@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-02-04 07:07:02 EST, tom write:

you've hit the nail on the head: herbert wants to tell a story about cultural,
political, religious and ecological struggle, and do it in a universe with
character. he does so, and doesn't let military hardware get in his way! now,
what would frank herbert's stats be?

> The worms realy like the Screen Generators,

true; i wonder if you could build traps for worms based on that...

> what would there stats be?

they would probably need the modular vehicles rules. or you could design
them with FT :-).

Tom

> On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 DracSpy@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 99-02-04 08:14:25 EST, you write:
then
> you would be able to minimise the blowback; even if the laser went

yes, that's what drones do in the book. i'm proposing an alternative use
of the same technology - sorry if i didn't make myself clear.

Tom

In a message dated 99-02-04 14:04:19 EST, you write:

<< > The worms realy like the Screen Generators,

true; i wonder if you could build traps for worms based on that...

> what would there stats be?

they would probably need the modular vehicles rules. or you could design
 them with FT :-).

Tom >> In book 3, after Leto gets his Sandtrout Suit, a person places a
generator next to him, all you need is a generator and some one who can run
fast, or just a sling shot. I can see it now: a small shell comes into the
base, nothing happens, a few minutes latter a worm comes and gets ride of the
base, you and the worm win.
-Stephen

In a message dated 99-02-04 14:11:08 EST, you write:

<< yes, that's what drones do in the book. i'm proposing an alternative use
 of the same technology - sorry if i didn't make myself clear.

Tom >> You did, I'm just saying that you don't need the laser, I also think
that they are to small to fit a laster.
-Stephen

But then again, there are probably emergency squads sitting around with "jaws
of life" to squish any errant shield generators that land in the compound.

The next question would be how you would get close
enough - a lazgun to the head would ruin your day.

--Binhan

[quoted original message omitted]