Anyone use FB ships?

Hello there,

I notice that a lot of the posters here use ships of their own designs. I was
wondering if anyone actually uses the ships in the Fleet Book. If so, how well
do they work as fleets? I've been considering purchasing a fleet and would
like some opinions on the ships.

> I notice that a lot of the posters here use ships of their own

There was some MAJOR discussion not long after the FB hit the streets check
the list archives (see FAQ). Several AAR's and various advocacy discussions on
the various fleets and possible doctrines.

John, my group is still a bit moribund (yes, I'm STILL planning on doing your
ST designs); however, we used nothing but FB designs in our battles so far.
It's the Evil Empire(tm) atmosphere at the otherwise charming game
store I frequent. ;->=

Our limited battles indicated the fleets worked pretty much as advertised, and
fairly balanced. You must remember, we're one of the few places where salvo
missles have worked VERY well. As I hope to show in an
after-action
report, it does require your opponent to co-operate. I've come to the
conclusion that bad tactics depend on your opponent co-operating, good
tactics don't, and brilliant tactics trick/convince him into
co-operating.
(Br'er Rabbit squealed, 'Oh, no, don't come down the center')

Inspite of the nasty things said about them in the book, the ESU are a very
balanced and strong fleet. I got into them somewhat by accident (most of my
purchases have been in close out bins, and ESU always had a strong presense
there.) I was stupid with them against an FSE missle-heavy fleet, but
otherwise 'dey been bery bery good to me'.

FSE are very fast, and when very lucky with SML's, hard hitting. They can't
soak up the damage others can, and if they aren't very skillful with missles,
in a load of hurt.

NAC could well be the most balanced, but have had several cases of bad luck
here. ('Heh, heh, I'll go down the center cuz I KNOW he's spread those SM's in
a wide arc in front of me.')

NSL haven't had as much a try-out here. They are 'dead hard', but I
wonder if they have enough 360 degree firepower to make up for their
relatively
slow/non-nimble ships. Others will have to speak.

I know this mirrors most of the comments others have made, but I wanted to say
again that FB designs are getting work outs, and that I assume most of the
home designs have occurred AFTER playing with book designs.

The_Beast

John Fu <jfu@neoucom.edu> on 01/20/99 09:17:01 AM

Please respond to gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU

 To:      gzg-l <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>

 cc:      (bcc: Doug Evans/CSN/UNEBR)

 Subject: Anyone use FB ships?

Hello there,

I notice that a lot of the posters here use ships of their own designs. I was
wondering if anyone actually uses the ships in the Fleet Book. If so, how well
do they work as fleets? I've been considering purchasing a fleet and would
like some opinions on the ships.

> I notice that a lot of the posters here use ships of their own

John,

The FB ships work well so long as they correspond to what you like. This may
sound odd, but I'll make sense of it.

If you personal style is beam heavy pounders, then the NSL might be for you.
If high thrust, maneuver reliant fleets are your style, then the FSE, etc.

If something isn't quite to your liking, then change it. My personal
preference is FSE ships, replacing the SMLs with beams. Thus I've created an
FSE boarder patrol squadron, which dispenced with SMLs to avoid logistics
difficulties out on the fringe.

Test drive some fleets with counters to see what you like, and then buy the
minis for the one that suits you most.

> I notice that a lot of the posters here use ships of their own

I use the FB designs almost (but not totally) exclusively, primarily because I
don't have a lot of time right these days to sit down and dream up whole new
designs of ships. I've tweaked some of the designs in the FB for variants
(both those listed and not), but really haven't had an opportunity to play
with them any. I hope to very soon, though... (hi, Iceberg!)

Mk

> Test drive some fleets with counters to see what you like, and then buy

Why just buy minis for one fleet type?  ;-)  I opted to pick up minis
from all of the powers, thus I can at a moment's notice do
'pick-a-power'
battle, or supply someone who does not have with some minis for a battle.

Okay, okay, so if I had concentrated all on the NAC I'd have one HELL of a
fleet of ships, but I like some of the other ships of the other powers,
too. Call me eclectic.  :-)  It's also how I kinda sorta see the UN...

Mk

First of all: I don't use FB ships very much (my fleets are almost
entirely non-GZG, and I had doctrines for at least four of the seven
firmly in place long before the FB came out) but my fleet doctrines have many
similarities to the GZG great powers. I'm not entirely without experience with
the FB designs either <g>

Second, remember that the FB designs are *examples* only. Many of the ship
classes have at least one variant described in text only, and these variants
are usually called "...the most common variant..." indicating that there are
others as well. There are *at least* 3 variants (including the one on the SSD)
of the NAC Valley Forge SDN, for example. In addition, the FB doesn't cover
all the ship classes used by the major
navies - the NAC Tallahachie DDs and Avalon BDNs, NSL Bayern BCs and
Hapsburg SDNs and several others are only mentioned in the comments, and there
are many other classes that aren't even mentioned. This means that even if you
use the GZG models in the Tuffleyverse setting, there's still
a lot of room for your own designs - but I'd try to stay "in character"
if I made up new designs for the GZG main powers to make them meld into the
doctrine etc.

To expand a bit on Doug's post:

> Inspite of the nasty things said about them in the book, the ESU are a

> very balanced and strong fleet. I got into them somewhat by accident

Some people have said (not here and now, though) that the ESU lack
anti-missile ships. That's not true - it's just that their anti-missile
CE variant is only described in the text and doesn't have an SSD of its
own... but the Beijing/B(E) (1 ADFC, 6 PDS, 2 Class-2, 2 Class-1) is IMO
the best area defence design in the entire Fleet Book.

I'm a bit biased against the ESU - too slow for my taste (...but then
virtually all FB ships are, including the FSE...) and virtually no
shield-skipping weapons, but if you don't mind Thrust-4 they're OK.

> FSE are very fast, and when very lucky with SML's, hard hitting. They

Yep. And if someone manages to hit *them* with SMs rather than being hit
*by* them, they die quickly - unless you design an area defence ship for
them yourself.

> NAC could well be the most balanced, but have had several cases of bad

They're the best all-rounders, IMO - and pretty good at killing ESU
ships, with all those Pulse Torps. (When they hit, that is :-) How is
the Showdown going?)

> NSL haven't had as much a try-out here. They are 'dead hard', but I

Depends entirely on what movement system you use. If you're using the Vector
movement, there's no real problem keeping the enemy in one of your front arcs
(where most NSL weapons are pointing), but if you use the
Cinematic rules they're not that good. Their anti-missile capabilities
are decent in spite of their low maneuvrability IF you don't mind using
those scouts for Banzai jamming :-/

> I know this mirrors most of the comments others have made, but I
book designs.

Or by people who don't use GZG models or the GZG big powers - who,
judging from the recent discussion on minor powers in the Tuffleyverse,
make up a decent part of this list :-)

Best wishes,

> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, John Fu wrote:

> Hello there,

Well, I've been playing my fleet as "K'rathri", so I tend to make all custom
designs to fit the character of the fleet I've chosen. However, there is
nothing to prevent you from buying whatever miniatures you like the looks of
and assigning them characteristics from any of the Fleet Book designs. My
co-worker Lonnie has bought almost all NSL ships, but he seldom uses NSL
designs for them. If you look at the game after action report I posted,
you'll see that for this game Lonnie was playing a NAC defending force -
using
his NSL ship miniatures.  My fleet is a hodgepodge of Babylon-5
Centauri,
Epic40K Eldar, and converted ESU miniatures - and I detail them with
Kilrathi Imperial Family decals I print up myself. Loads of fun. Other folks
have Star Trek ships, while John Cadice (my Heavy Gear gaming buddy) is busily
collecting Star Wars ships.

Buy whatever figures look good to you, and call them what you will -
that's the fun part about this game.

> John Fu wrote:

You can see a PBeM FB fleet combat in progress at:

> John Fu wrote:

At Cancon (Australian National Games Convention) ONLY FB1 ships are allowed.
Which means there has been some significant testing done on them.

The results IMHO show that: a) Any player who knows the "style" he wants to
play, who designs his ships accordingly, will beat a player of equal ability
forced to use the FB1 ships, all other things being equal. b) There is an
approximate balance between the NSL and NAC. The NAC has a possible
superiority. Very balanced designs, and murder if you stay in their forward
arc. c) FSE are brittle, but hard. You'll either win big or lose big,
depending on the SML exchange. Undoubtedly the most difficult fleet to use,
but also possibly the most effective in the hands of a master. But a player of
average ability is disadvantaged. d) ESU... I've never seen them win. Yet
there seems no good reason why, apart from them being 2nd rate at everything
(but cheap and numerous..)

If you want an all-round balanced and relatively easy-to-use fleet, go
NAC.

If you want a fleet with the speed of an Elephant, but as tough as a
cockroach, go NSL.

If you want to zap in at Warp 10, deliver a devastating salvo of

> Jerry Han wrote:
...Snip...JTL
> You can see a PBeM FB fleet combat in progress at:

Shameless advertising, Shameless!

:-)

Bye for now,

> I notice that a lot of the posters here use ships of their own

I wouldn't consider the NSL due to thrust.
NAC would be okay--sure they have enough ADFC and PDS among them; these
are often "variant" listings in the FB. They are, however, aesthetically
unappealing (other than as targets) due to the long, skinny necks which scream
"shoot me here!" FSE LOOK the best by far. A SLM armed fleet works if you're
good at guessing your opponent's moves, it also has the potential for
disaster. ESU are second in looks to FSE. They strike me as a "middle of the
road" fleet.

> At 08:18 PM 1/20/99 -0500, you wrote:

I think people are dismissing the big thing on NSL.

There is nothing better then being able to scream out in a terrible German
accent the orders, alerts and attacks. Sure you can annoy people with a French
accent, sound pompous with a pommie NAC or agaonizing with a Yankie NAC
accent.

You can have the true okker accent for the OUDF (lovely ships) ships and use a
multitude of "mate"

The only one that comes close is the IF fleets with high pitched wails.

8-)

> NAC would be okay--sure they have enough ADFC and PDS among them; these

In a message dated 99-01-20 16:15:45 EST, you write:

<< >
> Hello there,
I do, what got me (once I started the UBW project) is how much difrence in
ship classes between powers.
-Stephen

> I notice that a lot of the posters here use ships of their own

This reminds me of a scenario I ran at Origins last summer (scenario details
at:  http://scivax.stsci.edu/~kochte/s6.html ). The basic gist (for
those of you not inclined to read the scenario itself;) pitted small fleets of
the four major powers against each other. There was a 'valuable resource' on
the board, on one of the two asteroids in the middle of the table that they
were supposed to retrieve and return to their government with. With the way
the alliance of powers has been presented in the GZG universe, the NAC and NSL
allied against the FSE and ESU ships. Of course these alliances were
temporary, for as soon as someone got the 'valuable resource', their allies
would very likely turn on them in a heartbeat.:)

Anyway, I allowed the FSE to have Salvo Missiles set to *not* attack any other
FSE ships (moot point mostly in this scenario:) but any one else was fair
game. At one point the FSE planted a batch of SMs in order to catch the NSL
swinging around the large asteroid. The ESU was charging ahead to meet the NSL
head-on. Well, the ESU and FSE didn't communicate the FSE's intentions
very clearly, and the NSL, with a fit of precognizance (did I spell that
right??),
slammed on the breaks (the NSL had an Escort Cruiser in their ranks, btw). The
one ESU ship found itself very much out of position and in the envelope of at
least a couple SM pods. The NSL CE was in range to protect the ESU ship. So
the NSL kaptain flying the NSL CE called out in a thick German accent, "Hey,
Ivan, I haf an Aegis FireControl. How much money do you haf?"

The ESU player did not pay. And subsequently paid. Scratch one ship...

Mk

> lots of B5 stuff for EFSB games if we could find any! I _wish_ AoG

Well, said hear hear.

No AOG minis in the UK that I can easily find. Shipping
from US is a pain and expensive (Cost (inc US tax) + shipping +
VAT (17.5% euro tax))

> Tim Jones wrote:

> No AOG minis in the UK that I can easily find. Shipping

Hrm... Can't do anything about Cost or Shipping, but we might be able to sneak
around VAT...

Would it be too devious to set up a trade? AOG minis for things we can't get
over here, like a certain company's fighter minis which are actually to scale
with the AOG minis? And that company's large space station? Possibilities
abound for the unscrupulous...

I won't tell AOG or the VAT-weenies if you won't.

Do I use FB ships? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For a quick "let's have
a game" session with my kids, the FB is great -- as was FT and MT in
the past. OTOH, I've designed plenty of ships to match the various minis that
I have, as have the boys, and we did that long before the FB came out. We tend
to use those designs (especially one Torpedo Destroyer, which the younger boy
came up with 'cause he likes the
Warsaw class so much -- and it can be fairly nasty in action) when we
have the time to plan a game in more detail. Oftimes, we'll design an
SSD to suit the mini -- for instance, the OU ships look to me like they
ought to carry EFSB-type beam systems.

Our mini collections include lots of Trek stuff (SFB, FASA, MM and
anything else we've got our hands on); an ever-increasing GZG
contingent of all races, both "stock" and heavily modified -- that
black, 3-engined Valley-Forge-on-steroids looks _mean!_; and we'd have
lots of B5 stuff for EFSB games if we could find any! I _wish_ AoG
would get their @rs*s into gear and start selling the minis over here! It's
very frustrating to read of people picking up Sharlins and Omegas
at close-out sales...!

Phil

> I won't tell AOG or the VAT-weenies if you won't.

Unfortunately they slap it on in customs even by surface mail.

> Tim Jones wrote:

> >I won't tell AOG or the VAT-weenies if you won't.

Swedish custom inspectors don't do this for *gifts* - only for
commercial
packages. Since John's packages wouldn't be commercial... :-)

OTOH, I already have well over 20kg of unpainted lead. I'm not going to buy
more soon. Except to fill out the holes in my Numidian DBM army, but that
almost counts as painting <g>

> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:

> OTOH, I already have well over 20kg of unpainted lead. I'm not going

Numidians?  Isn't that mostly half-naked black dudes on little scrawny
horses with spears? How hard can it be?[1]